What should carry optics be?

[BritinUSA]

Personally, I think each division should be unique and offer differing challenges to the competitor.  We don't have that. The addition of a Minor-Only Limited Optics has created a division that is almost the same as Carry Optics; Magwells and SAO triggers are the only difference.

 

As every CO gun meets the criteria for LO, perhaps the two divisions can be merged into a single Limited Optics.

 

Then create a new Production Optics division at 15 rounds, with very few modifications allowed (we could do the same as IPSC, but also allow guide-rods to be swapped out with non OFM parts).

 

If someone wants more modification for their ProdOptics gun then they can just slide over into LO and customize their gun to fit.  

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, truespode said:

Wouldn't changing the mag capacity have an impact on classification percentages? How would readjustments go?

 

I don't see them going away from 140mm for CO.

 

I guess that'd depend on the classifier and the final capacity we end up with. For the most part it probably wouldn't change much but it's easy enough to look at numbers after the change and then drop the ones effected accordingly. 

 

Really if we were going to do this, the move is probably kill CO as it is and make a new provisional division to replace it. Then you can pick the rules from the ground up. Current CO shooters at the time could just move over to LO if their gun doesn't fit into the new more restrictive optic division. 

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

except that as soon as you make 'factory capacity' a rule, cz or canik will come out with a gun with 21-22 as 'factory capacity'.

 

Which is what happened in IPSC; When first introduced the division had no capacity limit. Manufacturers started making guns with longer grips/magazines which led to the 15 round limit.

[BritinUSA]

@Racinready300ex Great minds think alike  We were typing the same thing at the same time.

[Ben3]

3 hours ago, whan said:

I will say that no other division in USPSA has a min trigger weight requirement

 

From the beginning, Production was special and different. In every other division, a change to the gun was allowed unless it was prohibited (optics and compensators in Limited, for example). Production flipped that on its head and was the place where you could only do the only things that were explicitly allowed. By changing that one fundamental constraint, you got a division that was different in many ways from all the others. So I think having Production be the single division that has a trigger pull weight test is not unreasonable.

 

Production is not meant to be the "shoot the gun you already have" division necessarily, although it's possible the gun you already own might meet its criteria. It was meant to be the "leave the gun how it came from the factory division". Leaving the gun stock is not everyone's cup of tea, but it was mine and I'd like for us to go back to having something resembling that, the way IPSC still does.

 

And of course, I'd like to see the same distinction between a Production Optics and a Limited Optics. CO started out as Production with a dot, but turned into Limited with a dot incrementally. First capacity going from 10 rounds to 140mm magazines, then removing the weight limit, then allowing milling beyond the minimum necessary to add the dot, and eventually allowing effectively any part except the serialized component to be changed to an aftermarket one. At this point, for all functional purposes, CO already is LO. We should recognize some people want to shoot that and have that as an option. But I think there's still demand out there for a stock irons and stock optics division in our sport.

[Ben3]

Accidental triple post. Please delete.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Ben3

[Ben3]

Accidental triple post. Please delete.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Ben3

[Racinready300ex]

@Ben3 Triple tap lol 

[whan]

25 minutes ago, Ben3 said:

 

From the beginning, Production was special and different. In every other division, a change to the gun was allowed unless it was prohibited (optics and compensators in Limited, for example). Production flipped that on its head and was the place where you could only do the only things that were explicitly allowed. By changing that one fundamental constraint, you got a division that was different in many ways from all the others. So I think having Production be the single division that has a trigger pull weight test is not unreasonable.

 

Production is not meant to be the "shoot the gun you already have" division necessarily, although it's possible the gun you already own might meet its criteria. It was meant to be the "leave the gun how it came from the factory division". Leaving the gun stock is not everyone's cup of tea, but it was mine and I'd like for us to go back to having something resembling that, the way IPSC still does.

 

And of course, I'd like to see the same distinction between a Production Optics and a Limited Optics. CO started out as Production with a dot, but turned into Limited with a dot incrementally. First capacity going from 10 rounds to 140mm magazines, then removing the weight limit, then allowing milling beyond the minimum necessary to add the dot, and eventually allowing effectively any part except the serialized component to be changed to an aftermarket one. At this point, for all functional purposes, CO already is LO. We should recognize some people want to shoot that and have that as an option. But I think there's still demand out there for a stock irons and stock optics division in our sport.

 

That's true, and I'd agree that I wouldn't mind seeing CO revert back to a more stock optics type division, since I also feel current CO is so close to LO it almost makes no difference. 

 

These days, I don't know if I'd revert back to a full "leave the gun how it came from factory", just given the different climate in guns today vs. when production first came out. There's just so many variations in "stock" models that are set up for competition, that certain guns have become go-tos like the Shadow 2, which aren't the easiest things to find in many stores. Thus still ending up with a bit of a problem where people are looking to buy the ideal factory "race ready" gun.

 

 

So I'd be open to the trigger weight measurement, mostly just an issue that I could see pushback on the implementation vs. it actually being a good thing for the division. But agree that combine it with max gun weight and size, and people have much lower incentive to swap out a ton of nonfactory parts

 

[truespode]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Really if we were going to do this, the move is probably kill CO as it is and make a new provisional division to replace it. Then you can pick the rules from the ground up. Current CO shooters at the time could just move over to LO if their gun doesn't fit into the new more restrictive optic division. 

 

Good point... I would think that would have to be the way.

I am shooting my CO in LO. The gun doesn't hold me back b/c I'm not that good but if I was an A shooter going for M I'd probably want a 2011 or CZ instead of a plastic striker gun.

If they do make CO more restrictive or re-create it into a more restrictive division I'd stay in LO. As it is now I'm just doing LO for fun and because it only cost me a magwell. Then again, I only shoot for fun so whatever rules they put in place I'll find a spot I prefer... most likely anywhere a high cap plastic gun can play even if it isn't the most competitive choice.

[Ben3]

10 minutes ago, whan said:

just given the different climate in guns today vs. when production first came out.

 

I agree. I think defining allowable tolerances, like "takedown levers can protrude no more than .X inches away from the frame" and then allowing innovation within that box is probably more sustainable long term. The Production gun list is increasingly unenforceable with the number of models and variants. We should perhaps just have a set of criteria the gun has to meet to be legal, and then objectively check for those on match day.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Ben3

[Racinready300ex]

21 minutes ago, truespode said:

 

Good point... I would think that would have to be the way.

I am shooting my CO in LO. The gun doesn't hold me back b/c I'm not that good but if I was an A shooter going for M I'd probably want a 2011 or CZ instead of a plastic striker gun.

If they do make CO more restrictive or re-create it into a more restrictive division I'd stay in LO. As it is now I'm just doing LO for fun and because it only cost me a magwell. Then again, I only shoot for fun so whatever rules they put in place I'll find a spot I prefer... most likely anywhere a high cap plastic gun can play even if it isn't the most competitive choice.

 

Really, everyone is just doing this for fun. Sure a handful make a living at training shooters but not many. And so far I don't think the top LO shooter has beaten the top CO shooter at a major. And some times the top open shooter can't beat the top CO shooter either. So for most of us the gun really isn't holding us back. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Then create a new Production Optics division at 15 rounds, with very few modifications allowed (we could do the same as IPSC, but also allow guide-rods to be swapped out with non OFM parts).

 

If someone wants more modification for their ProdOptics gun then they can just slide over into LO and customize their gun to fit.  

i think most americans agree that the ipsc rules for production and prod optics are horrible, and I would certainly never shoot a division with such pointless restrictions that prevent people from making their guns fit their hands and/or personal preferences.

[RJH]

I saw the trigger pull weight idea come up and I've always thought ipsc does that incorrectly. If you're going to have a trigger pull weight, it needs to be on the lowest trigger pull weight of the gun. As in da/sa guns need to be judged by their single action trigger, not have a 5 lb double action trigger and a 2 lb single action trigger where striker guns have to have a 5 lb trigger on every pull. 

 

That said 5 lb wouldn't have to be the minimum, it could be three or something like that

 

[Ben3]

24 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

such pointless restrictions that prevent people from making their guns fit their hands and/or personal preferences

 

What restrictions are those? You are allowed to change to aftermarket grip panels to make the gun fit your hand.

 

That said, in general I agree with you. A restrictive division is not everyone's cup of tea. I think having a dot division that's more permissive than Production but less permissive than Open makes sense. To me that's where things like thumbrests belong. You can customize the gun to that level, but you're competing against other folks who have made the same choice.

[ddc]

9 hours ago, THS said:

If I was king for a day this would be CO.

1,  Holsters and mags back behind the Superior Illiac crest (the old production rule), except for Appendix IWB carry that requires a 1, a covering garment, and 2, ALL magazines carried IWB, and IN FRONT of the SIC.

2. Mags limited to factory capacity- Meaning you can add a pad ( up to .750" thick?) for insertion, but not to increase capacity.

3.  No flashlights

4.  Minor only

 

Limited Optics would mirror Limited, and allow race holsters and mag pouches, 140mm mags, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You lost me at "cover garment", I think you said more after that but the neurons in my brain were so fried that none of it made any sense.

[BritinUSA]

3 hours ago, Ben3 said:

But I think there's still demand out there for a stock irons and stock optics division in our sport.

 

I agree 100%.

 

It's worth noting that despite the stringent rules in IPSC, both Production & Production Optics are extremely popular.

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I saw the trigger pull weight idea come up and I've always thought ipsc does that incorrectly. If you're going to have a trigger pull weight, it needs to be on the lowest trigger pull weight of the gun. As in da/sa guns need to be judged by their single action trigger, not have a 5 lb double action trigger and a 2 lb single action trigger where striker guns have to have a 5 lb trigger on every pull. 

 

That said 5 lb wouldn't have to be the minimum, it could be three or something like that

 

If the SA trigger weight was set to 3lbs then it would comply with the rules:

15. The minimum trigger pull must either be 2.27kg (5lbs.) for the first shot fired and no restriction for subsequent shots fired, or 1.36kg (3lbs.) for every shot fired.

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, Ben3 said:

What restrictions are those? You are allowed to change to aftermarket grip panels to make the gun fit your hand.

 

Correct: 

 

Aftermarket grip panels which match the profile and contours of the OFM standard or optional grip panels for the approved handgun and/or the application of tape on grips (see Appendix E3a) are permitted. However, rubber sleeves are prohibited.

 

For clarification, I think the phrase 'profile and contours' means the grips cannot cover more of the frame than the originals.

[RJH]

52 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

 

If the SA trigger weight was set to 3lbs then it would comply with the rules:

15. The minimum trigger pull must either be 2.27kg (5lbs.) for the first shot fired and no restriction for subsequent shots fired, or 1.36kg (3lbs.) for every shot fired.

 

 

Did that change? I was thinking at one time it was a 5 lb pull on the first shot and that was basically the end of the rules, and Glocks and such were stuck having to have 5 lb triggers. But I'm not up to date on ipsc rules, so I could be way off

[whan]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

 

Did that change? I was thinking at one time it was a 5 lb pull on the first shot and that was basically the end of the rules, and Glocks and such were stuck having to have 5 lb triggers. But I'm not up to date on ipsc rules, so I could be way off

 

I think it did change at some point to encourage a more fair balance between DA/SA and striker guns, but previously it was the 5lb across the board rule. 

[BritinUSA]

I think it changed in 2011 at the World Shoot (Greece)

[Ben3]

According to ChuckS's archive of rulebooks, the 2019 rulebook is the first one to mention the 3lb for all trigger pulls alternative.

[BritinUSA]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Matt1911]

With CO and LO being so close in rules, I think CO should be more like the name it was given. 
Using guns in the mid size range “G19” using 15 round max mags is the most common size that majority of people actually carry. 
Gucci it out how you want with triggers and gold plated doo dads, but keep it as a reasonable “Carry” gun.