The 180 Rule

[TaterHead]

Here is the rule as written. Does anyone know what “the median intercept of the backstop” actually means? I have always understood the rule to be 90 degrees off the centerline of the stage, not the bay the stage is setup in. That is, a stage may need to be setup at an angle within the bay. The 180 would be relative to the stage, not the bay. The definition of the word “median” hardly seems appropriate in this context. Lawyers please proceed.
 

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his firearm to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not (limited exceptions:

[shred]

The backstop controls the location of the 180.

 

Rotated stages need to have redefined 180's set by the MD/RM or it's still the backstop.

[Robertwil18]

Always based on the backstop or berm of the range.  If it were relative to the stage you could have people shooting uprange all the time...

[broadside72]

This is how I determine the 180 relative to the bay, not the stage. 180 is the green line, red line is the median intercept, red "arrows" are equal length for three sided bays (including where one side is not "shootable") and equal angles for two sided bays

[Schutzenmeister]

When in doubt, ask the CRO for the stage.  He or she should be HAPPY to clarify it for you!

[perttime]

We have a local IPSC Match coming up soon, and there the rules allow something different: The Written Stage Descriptions for a number of Stages have: "LEFT AND RIGHT MARKED WITH POSTS".

[Rich406]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:23 PM, Schutzenmeister said:

When in doubt, ask the CRO for the stage.  He or she should be HAPPY to clarify it for you!

I once asked a stage RO if I would break the 180 by shooting a target from a certain position. His response was to shrug and say “if you break the 180 I’ll dq you”  I wonder how many notches that fudd had on his timer. 

[RJH]

9 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

I once asked a stage RO if I would break the 180 by shooting a target from a certain position. His response was to shrug and say “if you break the 180 I’ll dq you”  I wonder how many notches that fudd had on his timer. 

 

The problem with "can I shoot it from here" is that maybe you can but with no margin for error. So you shoot it from there, but break the 180 because your movement, then are pissed at the ro because you broke the 180. Maybe, that is why he said that, idk. 

 

Maybe a better response would be "it's possible" 

 

As an RO, I would tell a shooter if I saw no way to shoot a target without breaking 180 from a certain position, but then that would be an illegal stage anyway, so there is that

[Rich406]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

The problem with "can I shoot it from here" is that maybe you can but with no margin for error. So you shoot it from there, but break the 180 because your movement, then are pissed at the ro because you broke the 180. Maybe, that is why he said that, idk. 

 

Maybe a better response would be "it's possible" 

 

As an RO, I would tell a shooter if I saw no way to shoot a target without breaking 180 from a certain position, but then that would be an illegal stage anyway, so there is that

It was his attitude about it, not the lack of confirmation. The dude was a king sized wanker. 

[RJH]

58 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

It was his attitude about it, not the lack of confirmation. The dude was a king sized wanker. 

 

Gotcha 

[MikeBurgess]

On 5/13/2023 at 8:44 AM, RJH said:

 

The problem with "can I shoot it from here" is that maybe you can but with no margin for error. So you shoot it from there, but break the 180 because your movement, then are pissed at the ro because you broke the 180. Maybe, that is why he said that, idk. 

 

Maybe a better response would be "it's possible" 

 

As an RO, I would tell a shooter if I saw no way to shoot a target without breaking 180 from a certain position, but then that would be an illegal stage anyway, so there is that

my answer is that target is or isnt down range of that position 

[shred]

Just ask if they are following all USPSA rules including 2.1.4.  That's always fun.

 

[GigG]

On 5/13/2023 at 10:29 AM, Rich406 said:

I once asked a stage RO if I would break the 180 by shooting a target from a certain position. His response was to shrug and say “if you break the 180 I’ll dq you”  I wonder how many notches that fudd had on his timer. 

 

An RO isn't supposed to tell you how to shoot a stage.

[Rich406]

2 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

An RO isn't supposed to tell you how to shoot a stage.

A basic question like that isn’t telling someone how to shoot a stage. DQs are open to how the RO interprets what he sees, it’s completely reasonable to ask.  

[GigG]

Just now, Rich406 said:

A basic question like that isn’t telling someone how to shoot a stage. DQs are open to how the RO interprets what he sees, it’s completely reasonable to ask.  

 

Asking where to shoot a target from is telling someone how to shoot a stage.  If anyone above a very new shooter can't figure out where the 180 is they need more help than just on one target.

[Rich406]

2 hours ago, GigG said:

 

Asking where to shoot a target from is telling someone how to shoot a stage.  If anyone above a very new shooter can't figure out where the 180 is they need more help than just on one target.

Dude….

 

if something is right on the 180, it’s a perfectly legit question to ask the RO how he sees it. It’s not asking how to shoot a stage. 
 

as I said, the DQ is based on THEIR interpretation, maybe they see it as 181 degrees. But when looked at, most people think it’s ok. This happens ALL THE TIME.  If there is a questionable position On the stage, I always ask. Other than the one time, I’ve always gotten a reasonable answer. 
 

the incident I’m taliking about, the guy was a complete jackass. I mean, maybe that one guy was you??? You seem pretty passionate about how ROs should handle this situation, and your opinions are a bit on the fudd side…..

Edited May 16, 2023 by Rich406

[broadside72]

2 hours ago, shred said:

Just ask if they are following all USPSA rules including 2.1.4.  That's always fun.

 

 

If you want to get nitpicky, what about NS targets, but with a downrange start? You are moving uprange and the backside of all the NS are brown facing you while you move. 

[shred]

33 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

If you want to get nitpicky, what about NS targets, but with a downrange start? You are moving uprange and the backside of all the NS are brown facing you while you move. 

That's only an artifact of targets printed white on one side.  If it's a concern, slap a NS on or whack an X over the back.  We do that occasionally at club matches when the backside of a NS might be misconstrued.

 

 

 

[perttime]

7 hours ago, shred said:

Just ask if they are following all USPSA rules including 2.1.4.  That's always fun.

 

2.1.4

Target Locations

–

...

...

Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire.

[Brooke]

The problem is that while standing in a given location might be completely acceptable regarding the 180, the RO has no control over what the shooter does with the gun. There is no way to tell a shooter its ok to shoot from a given location (even directly downrange) because the shooter may point the gun beyond the 180 from any position.

 

No RO should get into the position of telling the shooter how to handle his gun  Thats the shooters responsibility. The position of his feet doesn't matter.

[shred]

That's the reason behind the last part of 2.1.4 is there, but since it's not enforced, we get into these dumb discussions of "can I shoot that target from here" with ROs.

 

[GigG]

16 hours ago, Rich406 said:

if something is right on the 180, it’s a perfectly legit question to ask the RO how he sees it. It’s not asking how to shoot a stage. 

 

There is no way for an RO to look where one is standing and decide if the shooter stands there with a gun that the 180 will or won't be broken.  

[racerba]

46 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

There is no way for an RO to look where one is standing and decide if the shooter stands there with a gun that the 180 will or won't be broken.  

sure he can...you don't need a gun in your hand to see if the 180 is being broken or not.  you can also tell the shooter that if they shoot it from there, they are in danger of breaking the 180 (if it's that close).  you are not telling the shooter how to shoot the stage, but you can tell them how NOT to shoot it if it's a dangerous action...like telling them they can't shoot uprange at a target...

[broadside72]

12 hours ago, perttime said:

2.1.4

Target Locations

–

...

...

Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire.

 

Some range lawyers will say that 2.1.3 defines Safe Angles of Fire and does not mention specifically call out "180 issues" only ricochet and berm issues. 

[pjb45]

I was at Nats in Utah. Ray H was the CRO.  I asked Ray about shooting a target through a port when I was about 12 yds from the port.  I specifically asked if I was breaking the rule.  He confirmed that I was not and it was a legal shot.  It saved multiple seconds to skip a port.

 

There is no harm is asking a rules questions to the CRO or RO but NOT OK to expect them to tell you how to shoot it or how others shot it.