Limited Optics

[Jim Watson]

[euxx]

10 hours ago, RJH said:

I completely understand that it's not officially recognized, but anybody that doesn't believe that there is an overall winner of a match is lying to themselves. In the early rules of practical shooting laid down back when Jeff Cooper and others invented the game, there was no allowance for different type of guns everybody competed heads up. This is kind of my point, we have divisions now, but the divisions really are nothing more than a way for people to win participation trophy. That's fine and all but acting like a fantasy division doesn't exist is a lie, because it does.

 

In the game invented by Cooper and all there was no gun race. Also there were other things, like testing holster retention by roll over. The point is that sport had evolved and branched out into several different games targeting different gun skills and mind set. It is obvious that the low-cap Production and Revolver divisions require different tactics than Open and PCC. Not to mention that since Cooper's declaration of the IPSC sport there were other disciplines added for Shotgun, Rifle, etc.

If you are believe in a fantasy division game. By all means jump on the gun race train and shoot Open. But that doesn't mean others have to share your beliefs.

 

10 hours ago, RJH said:

I've seen one poster on here multiple times say that a fantasy division was created because of practicscore, my point was you've been able to see a fantasy division long before practicscore was a thing. They're just talking off of what they think they know, rather than what actually is. So I was just trying to educate somebody in the fact that you've been able to look at a fantasy division across divisions forever.

Before PractiScore you had to have access to the results database or ask MD for the combined results.

The PractiScore website for sure added to the "a fantasy division" misconception by having the "Combined" results a default view for the USPSA/IPSC match results and calling them "Overall". Mainly because developer who did that wasn't an USPSA/IPSC shooter. It is been hated enough that several shooting sports been requesting to remove it all together...
 

10 hours ago, RJH said:

And everyone still has the same opportunity to win a fantasy division, if they are not a fantasy division it's their own fault. People may not like to hear that, but it's 100% true

 

Except that in many cases you have to actually play by the "a fantasy division rules" and bring the gun that would be 100% competitive to be 100% true. There are exceptions from that at "smaller" matches, but they only confirm the "rule". Otherwise we would have seen proof of that in the back-to-back Nationals match results.

 

[mpeltier]

20 pages to remind me why I seldom come to this forum any longer. Shameful all the back and forth, name calling and general denigration of others. 

 

I say let it be provisional. It will either be well received or it will die. If it kills another division, well, "Only the strong survive".

[motosapiens]

16 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

It would pretty much suck if it is a major/minor division. For a million reasons already discussed ad nauseum 

for only one reason actually.... because *you* would prefer to shoot minor.

[motosapiens]

11 hours ago, RJH said:

 

a fantasy division has been around a lot longer than practicscore. I used to look at it on easy win score all the time, before practicscore had even been invented. 

lol, I know you are just trolling and yanking people's chains, because it is not plausible that anyone would believe this nonsense.  normal people may look at a fantasy division for local matches where there is little heat in their own division, or where they have an idea of how they *should* stack up against buddies in other divisions. I personally totally ignore it at a major match, because it's not a thing. I should ignore trolls too, because they're not a thing.....

Edited December 31, 2022 by motosapiens

[deerslayer]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Lol. You should look at the guns on the websites listed. They are a hotbed of activity in limited shooting major right now.......

 

Well the premise was that no one is making factory .40 guns any more.  A quick scan of those websites proves otherwise.  

 

2 hours ago, RJH said:

And while Sao is not a requirement, it is one of the main reasons for the division and the only actual reason that the guns are not allowed in carryops like they should be. If you don't understand that by now I don't think you ever will 

 

I suspect there will be many non-SAO guns in LO.   

 

2 hours ago, RJH said:

Anyway I'm off to go shoot a match. Have a good day and please don't quote me on this cause, I'm really probably not responding to this line of "thinking" anymore

 

Good luck out there today and be safe.  

[BadShot]

22 minutes ago, mpeltier said:

20 pages to remind me why I seldom come to this forum any longer. Shameful all the back and forth, name calling and general denigration of others. 

 

I've been on this forum since 2004.  In that time, I have used the ignore user feature 1 time.  In this thread alone I have added 3 people to that list.  I think everyone should have an opinion to be heard, but when it gets to the point of insulting others I'm done with that person.

[Bwrinney]

I'll give a relatively new shooter's perspective on this, as it seems like most of y'all have been doing this for quite a while. 

 

For context, I shot Production back when production was cool in the early 2000's, then got out of the sport after a cross-country move and other various life-got-in-the-way reasons and got back in last year with my old G34 which, other than a set of Dawson sights, is a stock pistol.  Although this gun really doesn't have much of a 'practical' purpose outside of USPSA, and that's all it got/gets used for, it wasn't terribly expensive and was a justifiable expense for a hobby I wanted to partake in (you'll see where that statement becomes relevant again in a bit).

 

One thing I learned last year:  There's nothing Production about Production pistols anymore.  I sort of wanted to change divisions anyway, so I started looking at my options.  My goals were that I didn't want to be limited to 10 rounds and I wanted a hammer fired pistol.  I didn't really want a dot, as I'm an (extremely) late adopter of new technology.  No problem, Limited it is! 

 

I wasn't excited about being 'required' to shoot .40 S&W (I hate that cartridge, always have).  But I was willing to do it to shoot the type of gun that I thought I wanted to shoot.  Then I started price shopping popular competitive Limited pistols in .40 S&W and about fell out of my chair when I learned these START at about $4k.  I'm sorry, but I don't have the coin to drop $4k on a pistol that is solely to be used on Wednesday nights at my local club shoots from May through September.  A Limited gun (and an Open one for that matter, and to a lesser extent Carry Optics) have zero other practical application outside of USPSA, and I could not justify that cost for a one trick pony.  Maybe one day, but not today.

 

I debated finally adopting technology and getting a dot pistol and shooting in Carry Optics.  But much like production, there is nothing "carry" about Carry Optics what with their 140mm magazines and 59 (FIFTY NINE!!) ounce weight 'limit.'  That's not a limit...thats a contest.  And certainly not what I'd want or expect in a "carry" gun.

 

I debated shooting Single Stack, but that brings me back to 8-10 round magazine limits.  So with none of the divisions really suiting me or what I wanted to do, the new plan was to buy what I actually wanted: a 2011 in 9mm that has practical application outside USPSA, and shoot it in the division that fit it best.  So that's what I did. I bought a Staccato for $2400 that I can both shoot uncompetitively in USPSA Limited division, but also use as my daily carry.  I did this despite knowing the handicap of the 9mm cartridge the rules dictate, because that's the gun I want to shoot.

 

In a perfect world where I could dictate the rules solely around me, I'd get rid of Major PF (in Limited) and be able to shoot my 9mm competitively in Limited.  This is just my opinion, but I can see & understand the reason/desire to keep Major PF around in this division.  I disagree with it, but understand it.  Alternatively (or additionally?) I'd make Production pistols "production" again (and increase magazine capacity) and put the "carry" back in Carry Optics.  That'd be tough to do as the horse is already out of the barn for those divisions.  But alas, I'm not the king (nor do I want to be).  Maybe with Limited Optics now (potentially) in play, the people currently in Carry Optics will migrate to LO, we can disband Carry Optics, and make another new division called Production Optics suitable for off-the-shelf pistols.  I guess I feel like there should be entry-level division(s) that fit guns that that can be shot competitively as-purchased in the gun store at entry-level retail prices.  Production and Production Optics should be, by design, the most popular divisions.  Limited, Limited Optics (if adopted), and Open SHOULD be smaller, as these are divisions that people 'upgrade' or 'graduate' to when they want a new (more expensive) shiny new toy. No different than race cars.  Get your start in Pure Stock (or Hornets or whatever beginner divisions you have in your part of the country) and upgrade to something faster/more expensive when time/affordability/ability/competitiveness allows.

 

So this brings us to Limited Optics, and what the proposed division/rules brings to the table for someone like me.  I'm just one guy who initially planned on shooting in a division that my chosen pistol doesn't really fit in and is dominated by a cartridge that I didn't want to shoot, and am being guided to finally adopt what is now pretty sound technology in slide-ride optics into a division my pistol fits in like a glove.  I don't know how many of me there are out there, but this new proposed division fits me like a "T".

 

Anyway, thanks for listening to the perspective of one guy reintroducing himself to the sport after a 20 year hiatus.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Bwrinney

[deerslayer]

3 hours ago, Dazhi said:

 

This makes most sense even though it does touch CO.  I wish the survey form has this option to vote for. 

I think CO with 15 rounds would have been more interesting.  The toothpaste is out of the tube now and unlike some, I'm not in a rush to make lots of existing USPSA guns obsolete, so I want 140 mags to remain in CO.  But 15 would be a unique capacity/stage plan and if Production goes to 15, I'll probably shoot it some.  

[deerslayer]

11 minutes ago, Bwrinney said:

Then I started price shopping popular competitive Limited pistols in .40 S&W and about fell out of my chair when I learned these START at about $4k.  I'm sorry, but I don't have the coin to drop $4k on a pistol that is solely to be used on Wednesday nights at my local club shoots from May through September. 

 

I made Master with a $600 Glock 24 and currently shoot a $1500 Limited gun.  Spending 4k is not necessary.  

[GJM]

Regarding the high overall discussion, I can remember shooting IPSC back in the 90's, and eagerly waiting for match results from our local matches to arrive in the mail. I liked the clubs that got the results out before the following month's match. Those results were combined, with a notation of Open or Limited. I shot Limited and always tried to beat as many Open guys as possible. Today, at local matches, most folks are trying to place as high as possible in overall, and it is really at larger matches that placement in your division becomes the goal. With LO and CO having similar capacity, similar scoring, and somewhat similar pistols, you can be assured that CO shooters will compare their placement with LO and vice versa. 

[outerlimits]

15 hours ago, RJH said:

 

With the exception of major only, isn't that pretty much single stack? Or at worst L10?

Nope…comped.

[Jim Watson]

32 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I suspect there will be many non-SAO guns in LO.

 

Right, my friend had to shoot Open the other day because he was using his IDPA CO which allows mag well funnels as USPSA CO does not.

He will be right at home in Lim-O with no purchase required.

[deerslayer]

16 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Too bad for you guys that y'all are my only entertainment this weekend as I'm stuck in the house recovering from neck fusion surgery.  Please keep up the funny posts while minding your manners.

Dang dude, good luck and get well soon.  I am having rotator cuff surgery soon and will miss the fiasco when LO begins.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Bwrinney said:

I debated finally adopting technology and getting a dot pistol and shooting in Carry Optics.  But much like production, there is nothing "carry" about Carry Optics what with their 140mm magazines and 59 (FIFTY NINE!!) ounce weight 'limit.'  That's not a limit...thats a contest.  And certainly not what I'd want or expect in a "carry" gun.

 

Made A class in CO with a CZ P-10F after a year in the sport.  Seen people in my local scene make M with one too.  As well others with all sort of plastic or metal pistols that don't weigh 59 ounces.

 

You may think that you need to use a gun that heavy, but you do not.

 

You say there's nothing carry about a 140 mm magazine?  Others disagree

 

 

I had to laugh at this:

"a 2011 in 9mm that has practical application outside USPSA"

 

The gyrations people go through to rationalize their choices......

Edited December 31, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Bwrinney said:

 Maybe with Limited Optics now (potentially) in play, the people currently in Carry Optics will migrate to LO, we can disband Carry Optics, and make another new division called Production Optics suitable for off-the-shelf pistols.  I guess I feel like there should be entry-level division(s) that fit guns that that can be shot competitively as-purchased in the gun store at entry-level retail prices.  Production and Production Optics should be, by design, the most popular divisions.  Limited, Limited Optics (if adopted), and Open SHOULD be smaller, as these are divisions that people 'upgrade' or 'graduate' to when they want a new (more expensive) shiny new toy. No different than race cars.  Get your start in Pure Stock (or Hornets or whatever beginner divisions you have in your part of the country) and upgrade to something faster/more expensive when time/affordability/ability/competitiveness allows.

 

I'll put big money against that happening

 

If there is one thing the rule changes over the last 5 years have shown to anyone objective enough to pay attention is that virtually nobody wants to be forced to shoot stock pistols.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Bwrinney]

27 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

If there is one thing the rule changes over the last 5 years have shown to anyone objective enough to pay attention is that virtually nobody wants to be forced to shoot stock pistols.

 

Honest question...why did participation in Production go down so much in my 20 year absence?  When I was shooting in the early 2000's, that division had the highest participation of any, followed probably by Single Stack (if memory serves me correctly).  Granted, this was at one club and I have only a sample size of one.  Could it be that the rules for the division have changed over the years that now so many mods are 'allowed,' that people don't believe that stock guns can be competitive?  I defer to people with (much) more exposure than me for knowledge. My perception is that even Production has turned into an arms race; the division that an arms race should have been prohibited from exploiting.

 

I'm not asking the rules to 'force' anyone to use a stock gun.  Simply that they have a division to compete in.

 

*Edit: This might be getting a little too far off-topic of the conversation of LO

Edited December 31, 2022 by Bwrinney

[Johnny_Chimpo]

27 minutes ago, Bwrinney said:

 

Honest question...why did participation in Production go down so much in my 20 year absence?  When I was shooting in the early 2000's, that division had the highest participation of any, followed probably by Single Stack (if memory serves me correctly).  Granted, this was at one club and I have only a sample size of one.  Could it be that the rules for the division have changed over the years that now so many mods are 'allowed,' that people don't believe that stock guns can be competitive?  I defer to people with (much) more exposure than me for knowledge. My perception is that even Production has turned into an arms race; the division that an arms race should have been prohibited from exploiting.

 

I'm not asking the rules to 'force' anyone to use a stock gun.  Simply that they have a division to compete in.

 

Here's what I have observed in the last four years in area 5 in general, and in the Ohio northern and southern sections in particular.

 

Production took a sudden dive in participation as soon as the 2019 (IIRC) rule changes gave CO 140 mm magazines AND increased the max weight limit to match Production.  In 2018 CO had a 35 ounce weight limit and Production's was 45 (or close to that).

 

For me, personally, using an optical sight without the expense and impracticality of Open is what drove me out of Production and to CO.  I would have moved to CO even if the weight limit had stayed at 35 ounces and mag capacity at 10 rounds.  But most people aren't me, and CO was not very well attended when it was light and low cap.  As soon as mag capacity was unrestricted and weight raised to match Production, it exploded.

 

The 2021 rules added a bunch of external modification allowances as well as the 59 oz limit.  The 2021 changes didn't drive much actual change to what people were already using.  I saw a few people turn their guns into giant heavy monsters with brass grips, flashlights, etc, but they were and still are the minority.  Some of those same people moved back from that excess to where they were before.  The majority of CO pistols around here are in the mid 40 ounce range, just like the pistols that dominated Production since around 2013 or 14 when heavier guns were allowed in it.

 

One of the local guys who regularly crushes everyone in CO is using a mostly bone stock S&W M&P9 with a WML, which I think is a duplicate of what he actually carries.

 

I think your perception is that just because the rules allow a bunch of mods, most people have decided they have to max out their pistols to those rules.  In my experience, that is not true.  Sure, I see guys with 50+ ounce pistols.  They are definitely in the minority.  The majority of people are using pistols that sit around the 45 oz mark.  I'd say less than 25% of the people I see locally are using things like WMLs, giant thumb rests, or heavy metal grips. 

 

I think you need to not read the rulebook so much and instead observe what the majority of your local shooters are using.

 

I also predict that LO will not take a significant number of CO shooters.  Most of the new shooters in CO will see the abundance of 2011s in LO and will assume that's what they need to be competitive (whether they do or do not is a separate issue).  When they find out what they cost, they will stay in CO.  I predict we will see a bunch of tactical wannabes show up with their 9 mm 2011s and most will leave after their ego takes a blow because USPSA is a lot harder than doing drills for instagram.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Bwrinney]

Thank you Johnny, for the insight and perspective.  Genuinely appreciated.

[RangerTrace]

I just checked my clubs scores for indoor USPSA and IDPA from last week.  Half of the shooters in both sports shot CO.  Most of the folks I shoot with now are 50+ years old and the fading eyesight really forced the transition to a dot sighted pistol.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

the fading eyesight really forced the transition to a dot sighted pistol.  

 

Presbyopia hits everyone, even those who have 20/20 vision, eventually. 

 

It started affecting me in my mid 40s.

[shred]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

Production took a sudden dive in participation as soon as the 2019 (IIRC) rule changes gave CO 140 mm magazines AND increased the max weight limit to match Production.  In 2018 CO had a 35 ounce weight limit and Production's was 45 (or close to that).

 

Around here, nobody really cared about the weight, it was hicap mags that made CO explode.  Local clubs went from 50%+ Production shooters and a few CO-10 shooters to 75%+ CO shooters and a few Production shooters after that change.  Stage design often went with it, which isn't helping interest in PD...

[shred]

15 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

USPSA did not create the first divisions, IPSC did.

USPSA had Limited before IPSC had Standard or Modified.   Limited wasn't called a 'division' at the time, but had a similar effect although it was more of a 'tag' like Senior or Lady with everyone still competing for the one true top hit factor per stage.

 

[BadShot]

Looking at the guns that I have in my safe now, I have quite a few options with the proposed changes.  My 1911 can now shoot in Single stack and L10(with a dot), the same for my Revo.  My CZ Shadow 2 can now shoot carry optics and the new Limited Optics, with the hammer back and a race holster.  My CZ Parrot can do both open and Limited optics by adding a slide ride dot, and removing the comp.  Looks like fun...

[RJH]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

for only one reason actually.... because *you* would prefer to shoot minor.

 

Not really, but I think that is where we are headed anyway, and I do believe 40 is a lost cause. Heck I shot major today, 45 no less, in limited with a 10 round gun