Let's talk Sao carry ops

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

we have 'data' (not feels) that prove minor with irons is better than major with irons, probably due to the excessive and uncomfortable recoil of major. I think major needs the advantages to equal it out.

 

So minor 126's with a dot added into limited as is. Irons keep major and 140's. Capacity will be almost equal, giving major 1 or two rounds extra.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Is that really helping the division? That to me would be a fundamental change to the core or what limited is. You're not helping limited you're creating a new division at that point. It's just a new division that looks similar on the outside to the old division. I do think a iron sight, hi-cap minor division would be massively popular. Probably wouldn't matter if it was limited based or production based really. I think that's more of the reason for CO to be popular than the optic is. It's cheap guns, cheap ammo, low recoil and high capacity. 

 

 

 

 

I get what you're saying, but I think limited is going to begin to fizzle, well really it's already begun to fizzle. I think people don't want to deal with 40 anymore, especially when they have carry-ops they can shoot. So I think limited a minor only division might actually help it out quite a bit. Like I say I used to be a die hard against it, but in reality since everyone now shoots major that wants to be competitive if they all just shot minor you haven't changed that much. But this is too much of a tangent for this thread and if somebody wants to make another limited sub major thread we can get that rolling over there LOL

[BritinUSA]

I think Major (in its current form) is doomed. It used to be 175PF then IPSC dropped it to 170/160 for Standard/Open while USPSA went to 165.

 

I think the caliber requirement (.40 of higher) will go away.

 

Perhaps Major will be 145PF (9mm +P makes about 150PF, I think) and Minor remains at 125PF.

 

So all PF requirements could be met easily with factory ammunition, which would make life easier for those that need to fly to matches.

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I get what you're saying, but I think limited is going to begin to fizzle, well really it's already begun to fizzle. I think people don't want to deal with 40 anymore, especially when they have carry-ops they can shoot. So I think limited a minor only division might actually help it out quite a bit. Like I say I used to be a die hard against it, but in reality since everyone now shoots major that wants to be competitive if they all just shot minor you haven't changed that much. But this is too much of a tangent for this thread and if somebody wants to make another limited sub major thread we can get that rolling over there LOL

 

You're not wrong, it's fizzling. I like limited but I don't want to shoot major anymore.  But at the same time lots of guys still do so why destroy their division? 

 

What are we trying to fix? Really that is the question we need to answer first isn't it? Should all the divisions be equally popular? Based on activity Limited is still the number 2 division in the sport and we're talking about fixing it by taking out major. So if limited at number 2 is fizzling why are we talking about changing CO in a way that might pull more limited shooters? Adding SAO to CO will likely also hurt Open the number 3 division. How will we fix open? Make it minor only too maybe? 

 

We need to come up with some direction here. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I think Major (in its current form) is doomed. It used to be 175PF then IPSC dropped it to 170/160 for Standard/Open while USPSA went to 165.

 

I think the caliber requirement (.40 of higher) will go away.

 

Perhaps Major will be 145PF (9mm +P makes about 150PF, I think) and Minor remains at 125PF.

 

So all PF requirements could be met easily with factory ammunition, which would make life easier for those that need to fly to matches.

 

I'd rather we nuke major all together then pussify it. Nuke major and bump minor to 135. Lets shoot real ammo for a change and not powder puff competition only loads. 

 

At this rate 10-15 years from now 9mm minor will be scored major and 30 super carry will be the new minor. 

[crg]

@Boomstick303@BritinUSA Thanks for the explanations. I don't know enough to have an opinion on this either way but it sounds like the issue is really custom 2011s. Is there any fear of Stacattos or whatever other mass produced 2011s taking over? Or will people inevitably gravitate to whatever 2011 is allowed?

[BritinUSA]

2011 is a popular design, particularly in USA. It's allowed in Limited and Open and dominates both divisions. The thinking among some is that allowing these into Carry Optics will likely turn CO into another 2011 dominated division. 

 

2011's are expensive compared to most factory guns and this may deter potential new members which may perceive that this type of setup is required to be successful.

 

The whole argument goes around in circles.

 

The rest of the world (IPSC) runs a different rule-set for divisions, and they seem to be doing very well with it.

 

 

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You're not wrong, it's fizzling. I like limited but I don't want to shoot major anymore.  But at the same time lots of guys still do so why destroy their division? 

 

What are we trying to fix? Really that is the question we need to answer first isn't it? Should all the divisions be equally popular? Based on activity Limited is still the number 2 division in the sport and we're talking about fixing it by taking out major. So if limited at number 2 is fizzling why are we talking about changing CO in a way that might pull more limited shooters? Adding SAO to CO will likely also hurt Open the number 3 division. How will we fix open? Make it minor only too maybe? 

 

We need to come up with some direction here. 

 

 

I'll try to take this point by point as much as possible. First off I am one of the guys that shoots limited, while changing it to minor wouod not be my preferred option, I don't think it would destroy the division I actually think it would keep it alive. And I would rather it be alive and shooting minor then basically nobody shooting it and major allowed like single stack is now.

 

 

What are we trying to fix, just keeping the numbers up so that it doesn't go the way of l10, single stack, production etc.

 

As far as the rest of that those are good points, open being minor only might not be a horrible thing either, but those are all for different threads as well LOL

[GigG]

3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Based on the Assault Weapons ban that expired.  It made sense then.  It makes zero sense to keep it now, unless for some reason the BOD wants to punish the rest of the states for comply with the few states than have 10 round mag capacity laws.  Maybe the board feels they need at least a couple of rule sets that "fit" in all states, I do not know.  

 

This is an easy fix and it is already in the rules.  In states where there is a capacity limitation you shoot with whatever that maximum capacity is.

 

P.S.  I don't think any National matches should be held in lo-cap states. 

[motosapiens]

37 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So minor 126's with a dot added into limited as is. Irons keep major and 140's. Capacity will be almost equal, giving major 1 or two rounds extra.

that seems fair. but minor is so easy to reload, maybe no magwells for minor either......

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that seems fair. but minor is so easy to reload, maybe no magwells for minor either......

 

Here me out....what if we allowed minor in limited they get 140's but they can't turn the dot on they have to use their back up irons. 

 

It's a win win really. 

[motosapiens]

37 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I get what you're saying, but I think limited is going to begin to fizzle, well really it's already begun to fizzle. I think people don't want to deal with 40 anymore, especially when they have carry-ops they can shoot. 

in my opinion carry-optics (and dots) is the reason major has fizzled out. It's certainly the reason I'm shooting mostly CO now (although I'm switching back to limited for a while after new years). has nothing to do with 40, because i have a crap ton of 40 brass and bullets and a 650 set up for 40, whereas I have load 9mm on my old 550.

 

scrolling through results at big matches I see lots of former limited shooters in CO now. Why is CO so attractive? I'm sure everyone has their own reasons.... my personal reasons are:

1. learning to use a dot and shoot in target focus and go faster has helped my iron sights shooting, so why not do more of it.

2. much much deeper field. 75-90% of our local matches are CO now, and real men seek the heat.

3. not as much live fire needed (imho) in order to progress, compared to irons.

4. more oriented towards duty/carry guns that are actually practical.

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, RJH said:

I'll try to take this point by point as much as possible. First off I am one of the guys that shoots limited, while changing it to minor wouod not be my preferred option, I don't think it would destroy the division I actually think it would keep it alive. And I would rather it be alive and shooting minor then basically nobody shooting it and major allowed like single stack is now.

 

 

What are we trying to fix, just keeping the numbers up so that it doesn't go the way of l10, single stack, production etc.

 

As far as the rest of that those are good points, open being minor only might not be a horrible thing either, but those are all for different threads as well LOL

 

Keep it alive... it's currently number 2. One could probably make the case we should fix numbers 6,7 and 8 before we fix 1, 2 and 3.

 

It's a thought. 

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Keep it alive... it's currently number 2. One could probably make the case we should fix numbers 6,7 and 8 before we fix 1, 2 and 3.

 

It's a thought. 

 

True. I'd roll 5, 6 , 7, and 8 into one though.....

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

in my opinion carry-optics (and dots) is the reason major has fizzled out. It's certainly the reason I'm shooting mostly CO now (although I'm switching back to limited for a while after new years). has nothing to do with 40, because i have a crap ton of 40 brass and bullets and a 650 set up for 40, whereas I have load 9mm on my old 550.

 

scrolling through results at big matches I see lots of former limited shooters in CO now. Why is CO so attractive? I'm sure everyone has their own reasons.... my personal reasons are:

1. learning to use a dot and shoot in target focus and go faster has helped my iron sights shooting, so why not do more of it.

2. much much deeper field. 75-90% of our local matches are CO now, and real men seek the heat.

3. not as much live fire needed (imho) in order to progress, compared to irons.

4. more oriented towards duty/carry guns that are actually practical.

 

I was with you right up to #4 lol 

 

And I would add cheap ammo and still high cap

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by RJH

[motosapiens]

Just now, RJH said:

 

I was with you right up to #4 lol

You are certainly allowed to have your own feelings and emotions. As far as data and facts, it was already noted that my CO gun is mechanically identical and very similar feel to my carry gun and my nightstand/RV gun. a 2011 is not.

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

You are certainly allowed to have your own feelings and emotions. As far as data and facts, it was already noted that my CO gun is mechanically identical and very similar feel to my carry gun and my nightstand/RV gun. a 2011 is not.

 

Your carryops gun might be similar to your carry gun, but that don't mean everybody's is. Bunch of people carry 1911s, which are very similar to 2011s. There's even quite a few people that carry 2011's. So you're certainly allowed to have your own feelings, but data and facts show that many guns, even Sao guns are very practical and used for carry.

 

I find it hilarious that somehow a 1911/2011 is apparently not considered practical for carry/duty in your opinion

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

Your carryops gun might be similar to your carry gun, but that don't mean everybody's is.

so you agree with my statement that everyone has their own reasons. I knew we could find common ground.

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

so you agree with my statement that everyone has their own reasons. I knew we could find common ground.

 

I think overall in USPSA we agree on way more than we don't

[konkapot]

I love the idea of a an org-wide poll on this. This forum is such a small subset of the organization. 

[BritinUSA]

I don’t think an org-wide poll is going to provide much insight. Look at how few members actually bother to vote for AD’s and President…. It’s pitiful.

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I don’t think an org-wide poll is going to provide much insight. Look at how few members actually bother to vote for AD’s and President…. It’s pitiful.

It'd tell us way more than 5 guys debating again on Enos. Though I'm fine with starting a new thread about this every few months.  

[motosapiens]

44 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I don’t think an org-wide poll is going to provide much insight. Look at how few members actually bother to vote for AD’s and President…. It’s pitiful.

you would get the people who care. most people don’t care, and i’m fine with that. for people that don’t regularly shoot majors, theres not much reason to gaf what the org is doing..

Edited November 19, 2022 by motosapiens

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

I think it’s possible they allow SA guns in CO and with it allow major pf to compete. 
But after how they handled the dealing with the major 2011 builder/Sponsor of the sport. 
maybe not. 
strange things happening in Uspsa This year. 
 

[Dr_Z]

I am so confused about those seemingly out of nowhere, baseless suggestions, "allow minor use dot and force major to stay with iron" what kind of suggestion is this? 

 

Tired of this endless discussion. How about sticking with the current limited rule and allowing slide mount optics? Boom fixed it for you. If you want a new division to shoot 2011 with slide mounted optics, this makes perfect sense and so simple to implement. Just like the original idea for uspsa carry optics and the current PO in IPSC, the extension of an existing division (prod) to accommodate a different sighting system shooters so desperately want.

 

The end of drama.