Let's talk Sao carry ops

[motosapiens]

32 minutes ago, Dr_Z said:

 

Tired of this endless discussion. How about sticking with the current limited rule and allowing slide mount optics? Boom fixed it for you. 

 

 

If you are talking about an additional division, leaving, limited irons alone, then yes, that is a great idea. On the other hand, if you are talking about screwing over the second most popular division, just to pacify manufacturers who are unable to make a gun last a full season shooting major, then that is a dumb idea.

 

The problem is that the 2011 victim cult believes they can’t be competitive shooting the same power factor that the national champion shot so they will cry like babies.

Edited November 21, 2022 by motosapiens

[RJH]

Basically the reason limited optics with major is a bad idea, is pretty much no one wants to shoot major anymore. One of the things that's so great about carry optics is cheap ammo. People like that, people want more of that. So that's why slapping an optic on a limited gun in 40 cal is a bad idea

[Dr_Z]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

If you are talking about an additional division, leaving, limited irons alone, then yes, that is a great idea. On the other hand, if you are talking about screwing over the second most popular division, just to pacify manufacturers who are unable to make a gun last a full season shooting major, then that is a dumb idea.

 

The problem is that the 2011 victim cult believes they can’t be competitive shooting the same power factor that the national champion shot so they will cry like babies.

Adding a new division is what I'm talking about.  I strongly leave CO alone. My principal is that if you cannot fundamentally improve a division (Adding sao does not qualify that in my book) then for God's sake, let's have some stability.

[Dr_Z]

Just now, RJH said:

Basically the reason limited optics with major is a bad idea, is pretty much no one wants to shoot major anymore. One of the things that's so great about carry optics is cheap ammo. People like that, people want more of that. So that's why slapping an optic on a limited gun in 40 cal is a bad idea

And what data do you have to backup your clam that NOBODY wants to shoot major?

[motosapiens]

Just now, Dr_Z said:

Adding a new division is what I'm talking about.  I strongly leave CO alone. My principal is that if you cannot fundamentally improve a division (Adding sao does not qualify that in my book) then for God's sake, let's have some stability.

yep, you fixed it. good job!

 

(that was also my suggestion, and the inside scuttlebutt suggests it is the most likely path forward.)

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Dr_Z said:

And what data do you have to backup your clam that NOBODY wants to shoot major?

 

I said pretty much nobody LOL. The data lies in the fact that carry ops has a dominant majority of shooters, none of them wanting to shoot major is a telltale sign LOL

[Dr_Z]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

yep, you fixed it. good job!

 

(that was also my suggestion, and the inside scuttlebutt suggests it is the most likely path forward.)

I hope so. To me that's the most logical path forward. My real wish however, is fixing existing division oddities before we introduce new ones. Example: unify prod and co equipment rules (other than the optic part), and unify open and limited magazine rules. This is a totally different topic, but I think it needs to be addressed before they start implementing limited optics 

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Dr_Z said:

I hope so. To me that's the most logical path forward. My real wish however, is fixing existing division oddities before we introduce new ones. Example: unify prod and co equipment rules (other than the optic part), and unify open and limited magazine rules. This is a totally different topic, but I think it needs to be addressed before they start implementing limited optics 

 

One way of fixing carry-ops would be to allow SAO guns, seeing how not allowing them makes zero sense in competitive equity

[motosapiens]

11 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I said pretty much nobody LOL. The data lies in the fact that carry ops has a dominant majority of shooters, none of them wanting to shoot major is a telltale sign LOL

many of us want to shoot major but the division doesn’t allow it and we’re not whiny little bizatches..

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

One way of fixing carry-ops would be to allow SAO guns, seeing how not allowing them makes zero sense in competitive equity

if the majority of the membership votes for this, it would be a great idea and I would support it. If not, it’s just Internet masturbation over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

[RJH]

Just now, motosapiens said:

many of us want to shoot major but the division doesn’t allow it and we’re not whiny little bizatches..

 

Aren't you the guy crying about being scared of single action guns, sounds a little whiny, maybe a little bizatchey

[RJH]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

if the majority of the membership votes for this, it would be a great idea and I would support it. If not, it’s just Internet masturbation over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

 

Idk, the majority of the membership didn't  vote for carry ops to begin with,but you seem to support it. What's the difference here?

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

Idk, the majority of the membership didn't  vote for carry ops to begin with,but you seem to support it. What's the difference here?

I agree with you that there should have been a vote or member feedback of some kind. I advocated for it at the time extensively. I knew we could find common ground.

Edited November 21, 2022 by motosapiens

[Dr_Z]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

One way of fixing carry-ops would be to allow SAO guns, seeing how not allowing them makes zero sense in competitive equity

Carry optics doesn't need fix. The reason for no sao is clear and intentional. Prod doesn't allow sao therefore by extension co doesn't allow them either. If you allow sao in co then you must allow it in Prod. To allow sao in both, SS needs to go. Take a holistic view, you can't just jam sao in CO and call it good. If a overall revamp of the division is what you wanted then go push that instead 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Aren't you the guy crying about being scared of single action guns, sounds a little whiny, maybe a little bizatchey

you appear to have misunderstood the entire conversation.

[RJH]

Just now, Dr_Z said:

Carry optics doesn't need fix. The reason for no sao is clear and intentional. Prod doesn't allow sao therefore by extension co doesn't allow them either. If you allow sao in co then you must allow it in Prod. To allow sao in both, SS needs to go. Take a holistic view, you can't just jam sao in CO and call it good. If a overall revamp of the division is what you wanted then go push that instead 

 

So Sao in carryops, and lump production and single stack together. I think you've got a perfect idea with that

[Dr_Z]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I said pretty much nobody LOL. The data lies in the fact that carry ops has a dominant majority of shooters, none of them wanting to shoot major is a telltale sign LOL

I think you misinterpreted what you see there. CO is popular because of low cost,equipment availability, large capacity and the user-friendliness of a reddot. Nothing to do with major or minor. If CO allows major, I can almost guarantee you the majority will be shooting major in CO just for that perceived competitive advantage. 

[motosapiens]

after thinking about it a bit, I can see why crying little sissies would not want major in a single action carry optic division. Perhaps we could find a compromise that was minor only but allowed frame mounted optics. I personally think there is no advantage to a frame mounted optic, but I know some people believe otherwise. it would definitely be easier and cheaper and more flexible to put a frame mount on an existing Limited gun, load minor, and shoot it happily with a 3 round disadvantage than to mill the slide and not be able to use that gun for limited anymore.

 

so theres my proposal, limited optics, minor only, frame mounted optics allowed purely to encourage us old fudds that want to use our existing limited guns.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

you appear to have misunderstood the entire conversation.

 

I don't think so. You're shooting a 40 something ounce CZ cause you got girly hands, and your scared of a guy shooting a 35 Oz staccato because it's Sao, and while you would like to shoot it, you know the massive recoil of the 9 mil out of a 35 Oz gun would hurt your girly hands and you have to ice them after you got home

[Dr_Z]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

So Sao in carryops, and lump production and single stack together. I think you've got a perfect idea with that

My bad typo, I meant major changes for a few divisions

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

I don't think so. You're shooting a 40 something ounce CZ cause you got girly hands, and your scared of a guy shooting a 35 Oz staccato because it's Sao, and while you would like to shoot it, you know the massive recoil of the 9 mil out of a 35 Oz gun would hurt your girly hands and you have to ice them after you got home

nice troll, but apparently you didn’t read my posts.

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Dr_Z said:

I think you misinterpreted what you see there. CO is popular because of low cost,equipment availability, large capacity and the user-friendliness of a reddot. Nothing to do with major or minor. If CO allows major, I can almost guarantee you the majority will be shooting major in CO just for that perceived competitive advantage. 

 

No if they allowed major it it would definitely be a competitive advantage, but they don't and nobody's asking them to start allowing major scoring because of the cheap readily available factory ammo.

 

As far as low cost equipment that completely depends on what you're doing. An Accu Shadow 2 is over $2,000 which is basically the same price as something like a staccato C2 or something. There's a company that sells a tricked out carry-ops ready Shadow 2 for right at 3 Grand. There's a lot of single action only options that cost less than that. And yep you can win Nationals with a $600 canic, or $1,000 sig, but allowing Sao guns would not change that at all.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

nice troll, but apparently you didn’t read my posts.

 

I've read your post, and the troll is only because you like to troll about girly hands and whiny people. As a matter of fact I've never seen anyone talk so much about young girl's hands or being an old man as you like to

 

The breakdown of your post tend to be this: carryops should be based around carry guns, the problem with that theory is that 1911's, 2011s, Browning high powers are all carry guns that are used now and have been used for 100 years, so what you want is not actually based around carry guns, it's just based around what you want, or maybe what you want to carry.

 

The real fact is there's no actual competitive advantage to an Sao gun, people just like to shoot 2011s and such, and while the majority of people would probably switch to 2011 that would only show that that's what they actually like to shoot. They're still going to get beat by guy shooting canik or a sig 320.

 

Hell, I watched a video about a stock 2 optics ready tanfo today and it has a full under lug frame, weighs 45 oz, bull barrel, etc. There's no way it's outclassed in actual shooting by somebody shooting an Sao gun. The stock 2 can be shot Sao anyway. And it cost more than a bul armory or a Springfield prodigy 2011 type gun, so cost is a made-up issue as well

[Dr_Z]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

No if they allowed major it it would definitely be a competitive advantage, but they don't and nobody's asking them to start allowing major scoring because of the cheap readily available factory ammo.

 

As far as low cost equipment that completely depends on what you're doing. An Accu Shadow 2 is over $2,000 which is basically the same price as something like a staccato C2 or something. There's a company that sells a tricked out carry-ops ready Shadow 2 for right at 3 Grand. There's a lot of single action only options that cost less than that. And yep you can win Nationals with a $600 canic, or $1,000 sig, but allowing Sao guns would not change that at all.

You need to look into the origin and intent. CO is an extention of the production division. CO does not allow major because production doesn't allow major. Simple as that. People move from limited or open to CO is NOT an effect of people hating major. There are no causal relation between them. People do not hate major pf, they don't love it either. It's available as an choice, some take it some don't, majority will given the chance.

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Dr_Z said:

You need to look into the origin and intent. CO is an extention of the production division. CO does not allow major because production doesn't allow major. Simple as that. People move from limited or open to CO is NOT an effect of people hating major. There are no causal relation between them. People do not hate major pf, they don't love it either. It's available as an choice, some take it some don't, majority will given the chance.

 

Then you're going to have to look at the origin intent when production originally was adopted. It was intentionally made minor only, because if it would have been major the org figured that everyone would only shoot major, and they were right, because that's what happened in every other division. One of the reasons that people move from limited and open to carry-ops is definitely cheap available factory ammunition. Also being minor only guns don't get beat up near as bad. Then you add in the DOT and the high cap that carry ops allows and you start to see real quick why people like that division. Also trying to keep carry ops stuck to production went out the window as soon as they allowed 140 mm magazines in carryops. SAO guns aren't going to affect competitive equity and allowing them is going to change nothing other than letting people shoot guns that they prefer