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Let's talk Sao carry ops


RJH

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5 minutes ago, CC3D said:

I believe having the majority of people shooting one division takes away from the diversity of equipment and guns that can be run and makes the sport less fun overall.

 

Is this the rules and/or type of guns being allowed in any one division or does it have more to do with the gun market in general?

 

I do not agree that allowing SAO guns into CO would suck anymore people away from Production, SS, L10 or Revolver.  Advancement in technology and the type of guns  currently being sold in the market and the market share of those guns. Where it might suck people away form Limited and Open I do not think it would sink those division into  irrelevancy like we see with the aforementioned divisions.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I do not agree that allowing SAO guns into CO would suck anymore people away from Production, SS, L10 or Revolver. 

 

 

I think you're right. Now Limited and open should probably look out. I could see them slipping down to production levels in a few years time. 

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7 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Is this the rules and/or type of guns being allowed in any one division or does it have more to do with the gun market in general?

 

I believe it has a lot to do with the rules. CO is the only high capacity division where you can be competitive with minor. People want to shoot cheap ammo. People want to load their mags all the way up. I dont think it really has anything to do with minutia of the gun, more so to do with the broader rule set. 

 

If there was an iron sight division that allowed high cap minor to be competitive, I think a lot of people would be shooting it. More would be shooting CO because of the popularity of the dot of course, but it would be popular none the less. 

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Just now, Racinready300ex said:

I think you're right. Now Limited and open should probably look out. I could see them slipping down to production levels in a few years time. 

 

Probably more so Limited than Open.  Most Limited shooters seem to be on the older side.  At least in my Area.  I could see them running Limited Optics or CO if one day SA guns are allowed, due to eye sight related items.  

 

I think Open will not take the same hit.  Open is a different beast, and hell I would shoot it if I could afford it.  

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22 minutes ago, CC3D said:

I do believe that a division can reach a critical mass where people begin shooting it not because they want to, but because it's the only place where they feel they have competition.

 

This is already happening. If you want competition CO is really the only option. There a a lot of local level matches where 90% of the shooters will be in CO and the remaining is split between the other 7 divisions. That makes it pretty likely you'll be the only person in your class in any division but CO. Majors, there will be more GM's in CO than shooters in L10, Revo and maybe SS combined. 

 

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We need divisions to separate distinctly different types of firearms, this gives the membership real choices on what equipment they wish to use. 
 

There are several factors that come into play when choosing a division;

  • Cost - what can they afford or what types of guns are most frequently owned. And how much money is required to compete at a level playing field.
  • Magazine Capacity.
  • Ammunition - are they willing/able to reload their ammo or do they prefer factory ammunition.
  • Sights - Optic or Iron
  • Major or Minor

Divisions should be clearly defined and be different from one another in several aspects. Every division should have Pros and Cons, the skills of the competitor then become key to succeeding in their chosen division.
 

If one division checks all the boxes for the majority of shooters then (in time) that will become the ONLY division, and that limits choice and restricts growth as the sport becomes too much of a niche environment.

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Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

This is already happening. If you want competition CO is really the only option. There a a lot of local level matches where 90% of the shooters will be in CO and the remaining is split between the other 7 divisions. That makes it pretty likely you'll be the only person in your class in any division but CO. Majors, there will be more GM's in CO than shooters in L10, Revo and maybe SS combined. 

 

 

That's my point. I think a lot of people attribute CO's popularity to it being a superior division, when in reality a good number of people are only shooting it because they feel like they have to. 

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1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Probably more so Limited than Open.  Most Limited shooters seem to be on the older side.  At least in my Area.  I could see them running Limited Optics or CO if one day SA guns are allowed, due to eye sight related items.  

 

I think Open will not take the same hit.  Open is a different beast, and hell I would shoot it if I could afford it.  

 

I hear some open shooters complain about breaking stuff and wanting major power factor lowered. This would be a division they can shoot essentially the same gun and it'll probably never break. They'll just need spare optics instead of slides. The only reason to stay in Open will be if you're really attached to major scoring. 

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5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I think you're right. Now Limited and open should probably look out. I could see them slipping down to production levels in a few years time. 


I think Open is declining in IPSC, it certainly was before Production Optics came along and I suspect it will drop even faster now there is another option for those who wish to shoot an Optic.

 

It is quite possible that in a few years the vast majority of people will be shooting an Optic, so perhaps the orgs need to get ahead of that and start planning on a transition phase for Standard/Limited.

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1 minute ago, CC3D said:

People want to load their mags all the way up.

 

All the way up like the way new guns come with High Capacity mags.  I agree.  

 

Reliability of slide ride optics and high capacity mags have made CO so popular, and the growing number of CO ready guns available on the market.

 

Rules were restricting the use of high capacity mags and the use of Optics in a minor platform were holding back the advancement of tech in the USPSA game, so I can agree with you on that account.  CO rules are not holding back legacy platforms from flourishing.  The fact that NOBODY wants to shoot these guns is.  But we are all entitled to our own opinions.   

 

I think we can all agree you might see a bump in Production if you allowed 140 mm mags in Production, but you are never going to see Production being significantly higher than current participation numbers.  Unless of course you allowed SA guns in there too.  That might make something different, but again most likely would  just suck shooters out of Limited.  

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I honestly skipped the middle 7 pages of this, but does anyone think making production w/140mm mags like CO would bring some more shooters back to it? I'd be more inclined to try it. Heck, if it was 15rd. like IPSC, I'd be more inclined. Just my own observation and opinion.

 

Boomstick, you beat me to it by seconds!

Edited by OPENB
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5 minutes ago, CC3D said:

people are only shooting it because they feel like they have to. 

 

I do not agree with this at all.  What on earth makes them feel this way?  I think CO is so popular because of everything that has previously been mentioned.  Cheap guns, minor therefore ammo is cheap and available, a dot so the learning curve to hit stuff is reduced drastically.  Its the easy button of participating in the division that has made it so popular not because people feel its a superior division.  Especially for new people.  

 

4 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

so perhaps the orgs need to get ahead of that and start planning on a transition phase for Standard/Limited.

 

Do you mean create a rule set that reflects current guns and optics in the market and people are purchasing to shoot because they like shooting them?  I couldn't agree more.  

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I think we're in a perfect storm right now. CO comes along with dots and and hi cap, ammo goes sky high, primers become unavailable. 9mm starts to be reasonably affordable, every gunmaker has an optic ready model. This is all come together to make CO THE division everyone wants to be in. So, for God's sake, leave CO as we have it now alone. We finally have something the majority of USPSA enjoys. That never happens. Make Timmy Division, so the Staccatos with dots in Safariland hooded holsters tied down with leg straps and battle belts can play. 

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4 minutes ago, OPENB said:

I think we're in a perfect storm right now. CO comes along with dots and and hi cap, ammo goes sky high, primers become unavailable. 9mm starts to be reasonably affordable, every gunmaker has an optic ready model. This is all come together to make CO THE division everyone wants to be in. So, for God's sake, leave CO as we have it now alone. We finally have something the majority of USPSA enjoys. That never happens. Make Timmy Division, so the Staccatos with dots in Safariland hooded holsters tied down with leg straps and battle belts can play. 

 

I'd be fine with that, and was thinking of crazy thoughts the other day and thought maybe the trick would be instead of Sao in carry-ops, which I do like, would be to go a little bit further.

 

 

 

Think about this for a division, maybe call it something like custom carry, I don't know: But the basis would be take a little bit of carryops, a little bit of open, and a little bit of modified. Figure a 126 mag because most people don't carry anything longer than that, figure a slide rod optic, a comp would be fine, minor only, has to fit in a box. The box would be something that a 5 in 2011 would fit without much wiggle room. Of course allow room for an optic in sights and an Ambi safety. Probably be the most hated division ever, but it sounds interesting to me

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13 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

   I think we can all agree you might see a bump in Production if you allowed 140 mm mags in Production, but you are never going to see Production being significantly higher than current participation numbers.

 

I'm not sure. Production with 140's would be a division with the same gun but you don't need a $500 optic that's going to break after 10k rounds. But, now that so many people are invested they probably wouldn't go back. Had we bumped prod and CO to 140's at the same time I bet the field would look vary different today. At a minimum I bet you could switch limited and productions numbers. Hell, doing it today would drastically impact Limited as all the A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want shooters at level 1's would jump ship to Prod. 

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I think I already mentioned something similar to this. Instead of a comp I would have porting of the barrel. This is cheaper and would have less impact on PF from factory ammunition. 
 

All the existing CO guns would probably fit into the box as well as 2011 standard guns. CO owners could then add magwells and porting to their existing if they wanted.

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1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm not sure. Production with 140's would be a division with the same gun but you don't need a $500 optic that's going to break after 10k rounds. But, now that so many people are invested they probably wouldn't go back. Had we bumped prod and CO to 140's at the same time I bet the field would look vary different today. At a minimum I bet you could switch limited and productions numbers. Hell, doing it today would drastically impact Limited as all the A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want shooters at level 1's would jump ship to Prod. 

I think it'd definitely siphon Limited shooters. Cheap guns, cheap ammo, simple addition of mag extensions. Great starter division too, what I think Production was originally aimed at. New guy buys a Glock 34/Canik Rival/Sig P320, mag extensions, and they are completely competitive equipment-wise.

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Just now, Racinready300ex said:

Had we bumped prod and CO to 140's at the same time I bet the field would look vary different today.

 

I could agree with this, but to what degree I do not know.  Look at the gun culture today, and for many that have nothing to do with competition shooting are switching to dots.  I think you would have still sucked some out of Production, but possibly not to the degree that we have seen.  

 

As far as optic durability goes, people are getting more than 10k out of their optics on a regular basis now.  On a side note replacing a dot is way easier than replacing a slide.  

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2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Had we bumped prod and CO to 140's at the same time I bet the field would look vary different today. 

Had they implemented 15 rounds for both Production and CO, the decline in Production might have been lessened with limit impact on CO.

 

i don't think CO has netted many new shooters, it's a zero-sum game, they just moved existing members to a different division.

 

And for those that day that CO is only popular due to 140mm magazines, go take a look at IPSC, the division is doing great at 15 rounds.

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1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I could agree with this, but to what degree I do not know.  Look at the gun culture today, and for many that have nothing to do with competition shooting are switching to dots.  I think you would have still sucked some out of Production, but possibly not to the degree that we have seen.  

 

As far as optic durability goes, people are getting more than 10k out of their optics on a regular basis now.  On a side note replacing a dot is way easier than replacing a slide.  

 

I know at least on social media optics are the big thing. But, I work for a company doing CCW classes. I see 50 students a week. I see as many revolvers as I do optics. That's probably a exaggeration, I see at least one revolver in every class but I don't see dot's in every class. These are just average gun owners. 

 

It's certainly a growing market, but to me it seems like a small part of the overall. Now it's vary possible that the people we want to attract are the guys with optics because they may be more in to this stuff.

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14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Following the progession, we've now gone from SAO to SAO+magwell to SAO+magwell+comps/ports.

 

We could just make open minor a thing too. 

 

I know right LOL. I was just spitballing thought that could be interesting and maybe could be different enough to warrant its own division, without intruding on carry-ops. It would be kind of like a Roland special division. And if everybody hates it I'm fine with that too I didn't invest a lot of time in it 🤣🤣

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Oh yeah, in my crazy custom carry division I would also say to toss a weight limit on them as well. Maybe somewhere around 45 Oz, maybe a little less...

 

 

 

But I still think opening carryouts to Sao guns is the overall best idea

Edited by RJH
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2 minutes ago, RJH said:

Oh yeah am I crazy custom carry division I would also say to toss a weight limit on them as well. Maybe somewhere around 45 Oz, maybe a little less...

 

The division would probably be fun. But, I like shooting, so basically any combination of things could be fun. I think a Yeet cannon division would be fun.

 

We just need to figure out what should qualify as a division. Fun, might not be good enough of a reason. 

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