Let's talk Sao carry ops

[motosapiens]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

I want to get away from this allowing certain guns and not allowing others within the confines of normal guns.  Guns with comps, ported barrels etc should stay in open.  

people who sell comps and ported barrels to tactards with too much cash (and those tactards) would argue that comps and ported barrels are normal gun things.

[rishii]

Call me old fashioned, but let’s lump it in open where it belongs

[Racinready300ex]

It's interesting how if someone doesn't like the idea they're wrong and need to justify themselves.

 

It's all opinions and we're not all going to agree and no one needs to justify their opinion to anyone else. If someone likes CO as it is and shoots it, and feels it's going to screw up the division doesn't mean their opinion isn't valid. Certainly not any more valid then someone who wants to completely change the division other people enjoy. 

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

people who sell comps and ported barrels to tactards with too much cash (and those tactards) would argue that comps and ported barrels are normal gun things.

 

I see more and more posts on social media of guys putting comps and ports on carry guns, especially the staccato's we're trying to bring in here. It seem like a natural progression to allow those things a couple years after we allow SAO. I mean it is "carry" optics and those timmys say they carry those things. Who am I to argue? Plus, Nils will still win with a canik so how can you disagree really?

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

It's interesting how if someone doesn't like the idea they're wrong and need to justify themselves.

 

It's all opinions and we're not all going to agree and no one needs to justify their opinion to anyone else. If someone likes CO as it is and shoots it, and feels it's going to screw up the division doesn't mean their opinion isn't valid. Certainly not any more valid then someone who wants to completely change the division other people enjoy. 

 

Opinions are fine, but we're talking a sport/game that we play and the rules having reasons based on equity and not opinions seem much more reasonable. So if you have an opinion for or against single action only carry ops, either in its own division or lumped in with standard carryops, it would be good to have some sort of facts/logic to back up why you feel that is competitively equitable or not, depending upon the opinion that you are espousing.

 

At the end of your opinion you say that allowing single action only guns might completely change a division you enjoy, do you have any facts to back that opinion up? That's really what it all boils down to

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I see more and more posts on social media of guys putting comps and ports on carry guns, especially the staccato's we're trying to bring in here. It seem like a natural progression to allow those things a couple years after we allow SAO. I mean it is "carry" optics and those timmys say they carry those things. Who am I to argue? Plus, Nils will still win with a canik so how can you disagree really?

 

I'm only going to focus on one part of this statement which is the "carry" aspect of it. Saying that one gun or another shouldn't be allowed based on what people carry is interesting, because I can say I've seen a lot of people and law enforcement (talking Fuller size guns here) carry Glocks, Smith & Wesson's, sigs, 1911s, a few barettas, a few XDS, a few staccados, but I have never seen a person carry a CZ 75 much less a czsp01, and definitely not a CZ Accu shadow. So just based on what I've personally seen for talking carryouts as actual carry guns it would seem that the probable most popular gun in carry-ops shouldn't be allowed LOL 

 

 

And don't give me what they do worldwide because I don't care about ipsc, but if we were going to go worldwide Browning high Powers were used and carried a lot by military and police and they're not allowed either...

 

 

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

At the end of your opinion you say that allowing single action only guns might completely change a division you enjoy, do you have any facts to back that opinion up? That's really what it all boils down to

as has been pointed out repeatedly in previous threads, look at limited. the overwhelming majority of shooters are using high-end 2011's, even tho it appears that people can be competitive with somewhat tweaked plastic guns such as glock, sig and even canik.  A few guys win with them, but almost everyone else at major matches shoots custom or semi-custom guns. That is a fact.

 

It seems likely that if high-end 2011's were allowed in CO, then within a couple years the overwhelming majority of shooters would be competing with high-end 2011's. That's not yet a fact, but it's pretty darned close to one.

 

If that's what people actually want, that's fine with me. But I suspect it's only what a noise and annoying minority want, so I say put it to a vote. I personally think that 3 divisions dominated by 2011's is sufficient and we don't need a 4th, but if a majority disagree with me, I don't have a problem with it.

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Opinions are fine, but we're talking a sport/game that we play and the rules having reasons based on equity and not opinions seem much more reasonable. So if you have an opinion for or against single action only carry ops, either in its own division or lumped in with standard carryops, it would be good to have some sort of facts/logic to back up why you feel that is competitively equitable or not, depending upon the opinion that you are espousing.

 

At the end of your opinion you say that allowing single action only guns might completely change a division you enjoy, do you have any facts to back that opinion up? That's really what it all boils down to

 

So basically opinions are fine as long as they agree with you. Like your sport/game as it is? To bad you're wrong and need to get over it because SAO is fair no matter what you think. 

 

The point here is you need to get the people who shoot CO and don't want this on your side. Saying they're just wrong isn't the best move to attract them IMO. All they're going to do is email their AD and tell them they oppose it. Which will lead us back to the new division idea. 

[Nathanb]

58 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

what things do you think are the 'other problems'?

Let’s see. 
the finances and spend of the organization. How did the org get to a point where it barely breaks even?

 

Flying employees around the country to shoot matches why? 

 

changes being made that don’t follow the bylaws 

 

the behavior of paid staff. Showing up at someone’s work because they said something you didn’t like is unacceptable. If the nail in foleys coffin was his behavior at a nationals why can things like this happen. 

 

banning of individuals for dissenting opinions 

 

Lack of data available or utilized. Let’s not forget the gm scores that came about because they were being set up wrong and was only caught because of an instagram account who managed to cobble together the data. It’s 2022 and the lack of technology utilization is appalling 
 

create some sort of polling to determine things like this.  We all pay to be part of USPSA but they don’t take any feedback. It’s 2022 and it can be done easily

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I'm only going to focus on one part of this statement which is the "carry" aspect of it. Saying that one gun or another shouldn't be allowed based on what people carry is interesting, because I can say I've seen a lot of people and law enforcement (talking Fuller size guns here) carry Glocks, Smith & Wesson's, sigs, 1911s, a few barettas, a few XDS, a few staccados, but I have never seen a person carry a CZ 75 much less a czsp01, and definitely not a CZ Accu shadow. So just based on what I've personally seen for talking carryouts as actual carry guns it would seem that the probable most popular gun in carry-ops shouldn't be allowed LOL 

 

 

And don't give me what they do worldwide because I don't care about ipsc, but if we were going to go worldwide Browning high Powers were used and carried a lot by military and police and they're not allowed either...

 

 

 

That post was at least sort of a joke. I say sort of because I'm 100% sure that shortly after we either change CO or make a new division we will start talking about another new change. 

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

 but I have never seen a person carry a CZ 75 much less a czsp01, and definitely not a CZ Accu shadow.

 

 

as has been pointed out in previous redundant threads when you made this same claim, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't a thing. Many police and military in europe carry cz's. I personally carry a p01 (nato-spec gun) and used to carry a cz75 before I got the p01. The 75 is currently on the bookcase in the bedroom, and I now only carry it in the woods when i'd like to have a .40.

[Boomstick303]

15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Please refer to the 10871324123098734 previous posts on the topic.

 

All based on feelings and zero data.  

 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

banning of individuals for dissenting opinions 

 

This is a little (maybe a lot) disingenuous. no one was banned for dissenting opinions. People dissent all the time. I've personally told Foley and Jake and Troy and my AD online and to their faces that they were wrong and I disagreed with them. But I never threatened them online or in person, and I never called in anti-gun groups and anti-gun legislators to try to damage the sport just because I didn't get my way.

 

That should about finish this thread off, lol.....

[GigG]

28 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

people who sell comps and ported barrels to tactards with too much cash (and those tactards) would argue that comps and ported barrels are normal gun things.

 

Almost completely of topic but we had a new shooter a few weeks back at a local match.  I RO's his third stage. I was the first RO to notice he had ports in his barrel.  I think it was a Sig.  I don't think he even knew he had ports and I know he didn't know they made him Open.  

[motosapiens]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

All based on feelings and zero data.  

 

i get it. anything that doesn't agree with your feelings and zero data consists of feelings and zero data. 

 

enough of your feelings and lack of data, just take a vote.

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

as has been pointed out in previous redundant threads when you made this same claim, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't a thing. Many police and military in europe carry cz's. I personally carry a p01 (nato-spec gun) and used to carry a cz75 before I got the p01. The 75 is currently on the bookcase in the bedroom, and I now only carry it in the woods when i'd like to have a .40.

 

I also carry a P01 with a optic. It feels a lot like having a full size CZ. 

[motosapiens]

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

I also carry a P01 with a optic. It feels a lot like having a full size CZ. 

exact same trigger pull as my shadow2. exact same grip feel as the old shadow, and pretty darned close to the shadow2. I've won IDPA matches with it (with my IWB carry holster), and it seems smart to carry a gun I can shoot accurately and with confidence.

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

exact same trigger pull as my shadow2. exact same grip feel as the old shadow, and pretty darned close to the shadow2. I've won IDPA matches with it (with my IWB carry holster), and it seems smart to carry a gun I can shoot accurately and with confidence.

 

Exactly. 

[Boomstick303]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

anything that doesn't agree with your feelings

 

It has nothing to do with my feelings.  It has to do with why are why limiting equipment because it costs more?   Because it is counter intuitive to peoples preconceived notions?  All which have been disproven by data.  Data in IDPA were SA guns are allowed and have had zero effect on standings, or the type of equipment people show up to shoot the match.  

 

USPSA did a huge dis-service to the the division by calling it Carry Optics and not writing up a rule set consistent with Carry Guns.  Few if any of these guns people show up to shoot Carry Optics at matches are actually carried by them in the real world.  So please Stop with this "Carry" crap argument.  

 

Sorry you are stuck on the fact that SA guns should not be allowed based on feelings, but facts bear out the two main arguments for not allowing them have been proven false by IDPA CO.  

 

People should not be limited to shoot a gun based on feelings.  

Edited November 18, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

So trying to get back on topic here as the thread is getting a little off in the weeds......

 

This really boils down to; do you think that a single action only trigger gun is such an advantage that it is competitively unequitable to the guns in carryops now?

 

Keeping a Sao gun out for any other reason does seem to be based on feels, and that's not just because I like a certain thing, it is just basing things on results. After looking at production versus single stack results for several years, I've noticed that the competitors shoot the same basic scores with each gun, I believe Moto has even said the same thing. I think those divisions show a very clear picture of Sao versus production type guns. Limited division has also proven that trigger type doesn't really matter. Now if you don't want a division to be dominated by Sao guns, I get that. But if the guns are all competitively equitable there really is no reason to keep Sao guns out of a different division other than appearances

[GigG]

5 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

USPSA did a huge dis-service to the the division by calling it Carry Optics

 

I sort of agree.  Production Optics would have made more sense because with the exception of the optic and mag capacity that is exactly what it is.

 

P.S. I doubt I will ever understand the low mag capacity on Production.

 

[Boomstick303]

Just now, GigG said:

P.S. I doubt I will ever understand the low mag capacity on Production.

 

Based on the Assault Weapons ban that expired.  It made sense then.  It makes zero sense to keep it now, unless for some reason the BOD wants to punish the rest of the states for comply with the few states than have 10 round mag capacity laws.  Maybe the board feels they need at least a couple of rule sets that "fit" in all states, I do not know.  

[Nathanb]

18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

This is a little (maybe a lot) disingenuous. no one was banned for dissenting opinions. People dissent all the time. I've personally told Foley and Jake and Troy and my AD online and to their faces that they were wrong and I disagreed with them. But I never threatened them online or in person, and I never called in anti-gun groups and anti-gun legislators to try to damage the sport just because I didn't get my way.

 

That should about finish this thread off, lol.....

Yeah maybe a little but there’s a lot of drama behind those claims. They didn’t answer the drama they just gave out a ban. Which makes it look dirty 

[rowdyb]

So let's look at something with data then, that's been hinted at but not followed through on.

1. For a thought exercise what do you think about opning up SS to allow any gun that shoots 45acp and fits in the box? A la CDP in idpa. A great comparison of guns with the same pf, same capacity but wildly different actions. 

2. To continue in that thread let's look at a place that already has these types of guns in CO.... again, the idpa rules set of CO allows them. How is it working for the shooters and match results there? 

Surely there must be enough shooters and data to make some reasonable inferences......

[Racinready300ex]

12 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

It has nothing to do with my feelings.  It has to do with why are why limiting equipment because it costs more?   Because it is counter intuitive to peoples preconceived notions?  All which have been disproven by data.  Data in IDPA were SA guns are allowed and have had zero effect on standings, or the type of equipment people show up to shoot the match.  

 

IDPA scoring is so drastically different that uspsa. All that really matters there is acuracy. Imainge every stage at a match having a HHF of 2. That's IDPA. Equipment doesn't matter because it's bullseye with vests. Not to mention the skill level at a typical local IDPA match is vary low. I've won several with a 365 and a P01 but I have vary little chance against guys at my level in USPSA CO with those guns. 

 

Vary much a apples to oranges comparison.