Let's talk Sao carry ops

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Dr_Z said:

I am so confused about those seemingly out of nowhere, baseless suggestions, "allow minor use dot and force major to stay with iron" what kind of suggestion is this? 

 

Tired of this endless discussion. How about sticking with the current limited rule and allowing slide mount optics? Boom fixed it for you. If you want a new division to shoot 2011 with slide mounted optics, this makes perfect sense and so simple to implement. Just like the original idea for uspsa carry optics and the current PO in IPSC, the extension of an existing division (prod) to accommodate a different sighting system shooters so desperately want.

 

The end of drama.

 

 

 

Yes.  Done.  But some people thrive on drama.

[Dr_Z]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

Then you're going to have to look at the origin intent when production originally was adopted. It was intentionally made minor only, because if it would have been major the org figured that everyone would only shoot major, and they were right, because that's what happened in every other division. One of the reasons that people move from limited and open to carry-ops is definitely cheap available factory ammunition. Also being minor only guns don't get beat up near as bad. Then you add in the DOT and the high cap that carry ops allows and you start to see real quick why people like that division. Also trying to keep carry ops stuck to production went out the window as soon as they allowed 140 mm magazines in carryops. SAO guns aren't going to affect competitive equity and allowing them is going to change nothing other than letting people shoot guns that they prefer

Clearly we have very different views regarding this topic. UnFortunately neither of us have a say in the final decision. For me, I'll wait to see what the org has for us in the end and roll with it if I find it attractive. Good talk.

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Yes.  Done.  But some people thrive on drama.

 

Lol

[RJH]

Just now, Dr_Z said:

Clearly we have very different views regarding this topic. UnFortunately neither of us have a say in the final decision. For me, I'll wait to see what the org has for us in the end and roll with it if I find it attractive. Good talk.

 

Agreed

 

Have a good one

[GigG]

...

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by GigG

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, GigG said:

I just saw this on another forum.

USPSAGuns.avifUnavailable

 

Says unavailable

[GigG]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Says unavailable

Trying to fix it.

[Racinready300ex]

18 hours ago, RJH said:

 

No if they allowed major it it would definitely be a competitive advantage

 

Interesting that a striker fired gun winning limited proves SAO isn't a advantage but even with the same striker fired gun shooting minor, major would still definitely be a competitive advantage.

 

Really Nils has proven that SAO=Striker and major=minor. So we should be able to mix major and minor in out new limited optic division fairly. Minor guns will have a 2 round capacity advantage and less recoil to offset the scoring. 

 

roflmao

[GigG]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Interesting that a striker fired gun winning limited proves SAO isn't a advantage but even with the same striker fired gun shooting minor, major would still definitely be a competitive advantage.

 

Really Nils has proven that SAO=Striker and major=minor. So we should be able to mix major and minor in out new limited optic division fairly. Minor guns will have a 2 round capacity advantage and less recoil to offset the scoring. 

 

roflmao

 

As I think has been mentioned here Nils is an outlier and his winning with that gun doesn't really matter statistically. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that if Canik were to come out with a SAO 2011ish gun Nils would be shooting it next year.

 

P.S. All of this made me no less happy to win a Canik Rival at the Gator Classic a couple of weeks ago.

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Interesting that a striker fired gun winning limited proves SAO isn't a advantage but even with the same striker fired gun shooting minor, major would still definitely be a competitive advantage.

 

Really Nils has proven that SAO=Striker and major=minor. So we should be able to mix major and minor in out new limited optic division fairly. Minor guns will have a 2 round capacity advantage and less recoil to offset the scoring. 

 

roflmao

 

Nlils didn't prove that Sao equaled striker. I think Dave Sevegny was the first to do that, then Bob Vogel did it some, then Mason lane, then Nilsls. And there's been several in the top five. That's a trend, and it's a trend that rolls right on down the line through the classification system. A solid a class with a striker gun is still going to be a solid a class with an Sao gun

 

Nils winning with a minor gun, I'm still of the belief that's an anomaly. Get two or three more people to do it then it might to be a trend and there might not be any difference, but I think that difference is pretty provable. I also think Nils margin of victory was higher in single stack where he shot major, but I can't remember now.

 

But you give the same guy a major gun and a minor gun and check his hit factors and generally he's going to shoot a higher hit factor with major. Give the same guy an Sao gun and a striker gun, and is hit factors are going to be basically the same. One day one might be higher and the next day the next, but major with the same shooter is almost always going to be higher. You can prove this out yourself if you would like, I have

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

But you give the same guy a major gun and a minor gun and check his hit factors 

 

It'd be interesting to see this done with a current CO gun vs a Atlas Nyx for example. I don't think anyones done this yet we just point to Nils and say "see" 

 

It's just amusing how it only works for what you want it to work for. 

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

 But I'd bet dollars to donuts that if Canik were to come out with a SAO 2011ish gun Nils would be shooting it next year.

 

You're probably right, and that gun would make the prodigy look expensive. Everyone would have one lol. 

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It'd be interesting to see this done with a current CO gun vs a Atlas Nyx for example. I don't think anyones done this yet we just point to Nils and say "see" 

 

It's just amusing how it only works for what you want it to work for. 

 

It's not just what I want it to work for, you missed the point where I said I've actually checked this.

 

It's pretty simple to do if you have fairly matching guns, like a minor single stack gun and a major single stack gun, load them up both with equal capacity and go shoot. Shoot the same stages, shoot some different stages, shoot them in different orders, the major gun is almost always going to win to the point where if it doesn't it's because something strange happened there. With limited guns the difference it capacity between major and minor basically doesn't matter because both of them are up over 20 rounds and at that point there's a place to reload, really the difference in 18 rounds of major and 23 rounds of minor is almost non-existent in shooting stages as far as reloads, yes I've tested this too.  Though, you do get an occasional stage where the capacity is an advantage, but it is rare. The difference in 8 and 10 though is noticeable, and that's why I say to load your single stack guns up to equal capacity so that you're actually only testing Major versus minor.

 

 

Another real simple test to test striker/dasa against Sao is to get your production gun and your single stack gun all of which are shooting minor at this point and run some stages. Hit factors are going to be the same, or within a margin of error. You can even see this across results in bigger matches, when shooters of equal ability (as much as that can be determined) shoot the same scores in a single stack and production. Hell, a lot of times production guns finish higher than single stack guns... 

[Boomstick303]

18 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Interesting that a striker fired gun winning limited proves SAO isn't a advantage but even with the same striker fired gun shooting minor, major would still definitely be a competitive advantage.

 

It would be interesting to see Nils shoot a major gun and he would place all the same?  Is he so comfortable with his current platform, would major using a different gun having more recoil disrupt his flow?  Would he shoot any faster  knowing he can afford more Charlies?

 

I don't think it would, but it is an interesting question.  I have a buddy moving from Limited to Open, after over a decade of shooting Limited.  He is finding he is not shooting faster with Open yet, because he feels he waiting for the gun to return like he had to with Limited.  

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

It would be interesting to see Nils shoot a major gun and he would place all the same?  Is he so comfortable with his current platform, would major using a different gun having more recoil disrupt his flow?  Would he shoot any faster  knowing he can afford more Charlies?

 

I don't think it would, but it is an interesting question.  I have a buddy moving from Limited to Open, after over a decade of shooting Limited.  He is finding he is not shooting faster with Open yet, because he feels he waiting for the gun to return like he had to with Limited.  

 

It didn't seem to bother him this year when he won single stack Nationals, shooting major, by 7%, over the second place guy who happened to be Dave sevigny shooting minor

 

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Another real simple test to test striker/dasa against Sao is to get your production gun and your single stack gun all of which are shooting minor at this point and run some stages. Hit factors are going to be the same, or within a margin of error. You can even see this across results in bigger matches, when shooters of equal ability (as much as that can be determined) shoot the same scores in a single stack and production. Hell, a lot of times production guns finish higher than single stack guns... 

 

 

I've put up some of my best times on drills running my SS gun. It's also the only gun I've clocked myself doing sub second reloads with. But, I have a lot of time on 1911's. But clearly that has nothing to do with it, because it can't be the shooter or else we couldn't point to shooters match results to prove gear questions. 

 

I also found major to be a advantage for me. I don't actually think major and minor are the same. I just found the statement funny because it's the exact justification used for SAO. 

[Boomstick303]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

It didn't seem to bother him this year when he won single stack Nationals, shooting major, by 7%, over the second place guy who happened to be Dave sevigny shooting minor

 

Oh yea, so that would be NO then.  

 

Crazy how good that dude is.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I've put up some of my best times on drills running my SS gun. It's also the only gun I've clocked myself doing sub second reloads with. But, I have a lot of time on 1911's. But clearly that has nothing to do with it, because it can't be the shooter or else we couldn't point to shooters match results to prove gear questions. 

 

I also found major to be a advantage for me. I don't actually think major and minor are the same. I just found the statement funny because it's the exact justification used for SAO. 

 

If you think it's the exact justification for using Sao you're completely missing what I'm saying, but the internet sometimes that happens

[RJH]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

Oh yea, so that would be NO then.  

 

Yeah, he's smoking it in everything he does right now. He won the two gun Nationals as well although I'm sure he was shooting his canic at that point. He's got to be one of the top what, three or four shooters in the world right now?

[GigG]

Here we go from earlier...

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

The question is how to determine what those number mean ? 
I would say anything over a 10% participation  is a class doing just fine. 
my opinion in this singular instance.  

[GigG]

26 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

The question is how to determine what those number mean ? 
I would say anything over a 10% participation  is a class doing just fine. 
my opinion in this singular instance.  

 

I don't disagree with that.  So by that argument half of the Division aren't doing fine at all. What the organization needs to decide is if and how that half can either be fixed or done away with.

 

The obvious Production fix is to allow the same mag capacity as CO.

 

I also see no problem with combining L10 with SS.

 

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Hypothetical. You would have to draw the line at something for argument sake. 
if the average level 1 local match has 100 people I would say if there is  less then 5 people in a division is not good. 
and 1 or 2 people is really not good 

but 10-30 could be considered Decent competition. 
buy no means Am I saying get rid of them or turn the upside down. 
just making an observation. 
Honestly that’s all we’re doing here is talking hypothetical and maybe some ideas of what we would push if we were in charge. 
But we’re not. 
Really to speculate on future rules,

I would like to know how the idea of flashlights was brought up and got to be a serious consideration. Was it locals calling there area director or was it there idea. 
maybe to avoid a heavy gun dominance in the class. Idk 

but if that’s the case would they really allow SA guns in CO and not believe in time they will be the most prevalent gun being used. 
like I said I’m just speculating. 
 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Superkaratemonkeyfighter
I spell like a 1st grader 😁

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

It would be interesting to see Nils shoot a major gun and he would place all the same? 

nils has a whole basket full of national and world championships, shooting major. He would still win, he would just be further ahead.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Dedicated pros with talent that practice and refine there skills will always win. 
No knock to them but they should never be a consideration for rule changes. 
with in reason. 
…….if they help create some new binary technology that cancels recoil and stacks 3 bullets on top of each other. Then

That is no good for competition.

 

I think all rule changes should be based on the idea of is this good for competition !

because that’s what this is !

its a sport of talent and refined equipment tuned to perform at the highest level it can.