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Let's talk Sao carry ops


RJH
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So I figure Sao carry ops,or some version of that is going to happen. If so what do y'all think will be the best way for it? 

 

Should it be it own division or lumped in with Co?

 

Or should it be provisionally it own division, and then lumped in with Co when everyone realizes that the scores are interchangeable in the overalls?

 

With all the major 2011 manufactures building slide ride 9 minor guns, sig with their new x5 Sao, Beretta with the 92x, and CZ/tanfo having ing sao or guns that can be fired sao , and a lot of people liking the sao co idea, I believe sao co is coming, and am wondering how it will be implemented. I am for just throw it all together in co and have fun, but I am sure others will have differing opinions 

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My guess is Limited Optics; I think they will go with 140mm magazine, slide-ride optic, magwells etc.

 

If they go with Major/Minor then those with existing Limited guns can cheaply convert just by milling the slide.
 

If they go with Minor only then it’s a big outlay for those that want to switch from Limited to Limited Optics. This leads me to think that USPSA will opt for Minor-only as it will keep the vendors happy.

 

Also, if they go with Minor-only then existing CO guns could also compete in this division, it allows the CO shooter to add magwells to their existing guns and shoot in LO if they wish. Perhaps, if enough people did that then perhaps they could restore Production Optics to what it was originally intended to be, a production gun with a red-dot, like they have in IPSC.

 

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3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

My guess is Limited Optics; I think they will go with 140mm magazine, slide-ride optic, magwells etc.

 

If they go with Major/Minor then those with existing Limited guns can cheaply convert just by milling the slide.
 

If they go with Minor only then it’s a big outlay for those that want to switch from Limited to Limited Optics. This leads me to think that USPSA will opt for Minor-only as it will keep the vendors happy.

 

Also, if they go with Minor-only then existing CO guns could also compete in this division, it allows the CO shooter to add magwells to their existing guns and shoot in LO if they wish. Perhaps, if enough people did that then perhaps they could restore Production Optics to what it was originally intended to be, a production gun with a red-dot, like they have in IPSC.

 

 

I definitely think it will be minor only.

 

I don't hate your limited optics idea, but I have been for allowing magwells in co for a while anyway, even if they were small "fit in the box" magwells

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I don’t think it’s a this year thing. With all the drama around the board and a new president coming in. I’d like to think they’ll start doing things right and try to fix some of the other problems. 
 

id really like to see them address some of it and then maybe actually poll the membership for changes instead of some foley style crap. 
 

when they do it. if they allow carry optics and magwells then it means that production should have magwells and single action only triggers too.  
 

At that point we now have lim minor and major and production is really dead. 
 

And the argument but nils won nationals shouldn’t be the qualifying data point for this 

Edited by Nathanb
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11 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Another awesome thread to trigger the Fudds.   

 

The 2011 in co thread got wrecked so hopefully this one will stay on track. Plus I think SAO in CO is more correct LOL. 

 

I think there are too many companies producing and people shooting soa minor guns for USPSA to miss this opportunity 

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2 minutes ago, RJH said:

I have been for allowing magwells in co for a while anyway, even if they were small "fit in the box" magwells

 

You would be keeping many 2011 SA Guns out if you don't allow Magwells, which would kind of defeat the purpose, No?

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Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

You would be keeping many 2011 SA Guns out if you don't allow Magwells, which would kind of defeat the purpose, No?

But if you allow magwells in carry optics then that means production has the same argument for them does it not 

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5 minutes ago, RJH said:

I think there are too many companies producing and people shooting soa minor guns for USPSA to miss this opportunity 

 

I beat this point to death, but essentially fell on deaf ears.  Not sure why SA guns are not allowed now.  As it was mentioned in the 2011 thread, creating CO based on Production rules was extremely short sighted.  One has nothing to do with the other, but for some reason people think it does.  Naming it Carry Optics did not help at all.

 

Seeing how current guns in CO are not typically Carry guns, but many will argue that is the reason CO was based on Production rules.

 

We need to stop attaching any rules in CO to Production or vice versa.  At least that is my take.  Production is dying a slow death like SS and the other divisions that have extremely limited participation.  Why do we need to keep doing this?

 

 

Edited by Boomstick303
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Just now, Nathanb said:

I don’t think it’s a this year thing. With all the drama around the board and a new president coming in. I’d like to think they’ll start doing things right and try to fix some of the other problems. 
 

id really like to see them address some of it and then maybe actually poll the membership for changes instead of some foley style crap. 
 

when they do it. if they allow carry optics and magwells then it means that production should have magwells and single action only triggers too.  
 

At that point we now have A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want and major and production is really dead. 

 

Could be right about it not happening this year

 

While Foley changes are griped about they did bring a very popular division into existence, but also PCC lol 

 

Production as is, is probably already dead, but that is for a different thread

 Although I would be for Sao, magwells, and 8 major and 10 minor locap and lump all locap together 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

You would be keeping many 2011 SA Guns out if you don't allow Magwells, which would kind of defeat the purpose, No?

 

Idk, most of the magwells on 2011s I see are removable, just like the one that came from the factory that I cannot use on my current carryops gun. But I would much rather be able to use them, because I like them on my carry gun as well

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5 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I beat this point to death, but essentially fell on deaf ears.  Not sure why SA guns are not allowed now.  As it was mentioned in the 2011 thread, creating CO based on Production rules was extremely short sighted.  One has nothing to do with the other, but for some reason people think it does.  Naming it Carry Optics did not help at all.

 

Seeing how current guns in CO are not typically Carry guns, but many will argue that is the reason CO was based on Production rules.

 

We need to stop attaching any rules in CO to Production or vice versa.  At least that is my take.  Production is dying a slow death like SS and the other divisions that have extremely limited participation.  Why do we need to keep doing this?

 

 

 

Agreed 

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Just now, Kwontanamo said:

If SAO CO gets approved I can also see a change to DA/SA guns. Back to 10rd mags, no base pads, and no slide cuts. Original factory setting and modifications. 

Then you’ll have a bunch of pissed off people who spent money to fit a division and are now told they don’t get to play anymore.  
 

or you’ll have guns converted to sao

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12 minutes ago, Kwontanamo said:

If SAO CO gets approved I can also see a change to DA/SA guns. Back to 10rd mags, no base pads, and no slide cuts. Original factory setting and modifications. 

 

I don't think that would happen

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29 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

For Carry Optics?

 

18 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I don't think that would happen

It probably wouldn't but it was a thought. It was the "robbing Pete to pay Paul" thought. If they do allow SAO CO to take off, something has to give with the current CO division and I saw the DA/SA side of CO taking the hit. 

 

29 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

Then you’ll have a bunch of pissed off people who spent money to fit a division and are now told they don’t get to play anymore.  
 

or you’ll have guns converted to sao

100% agree. I'd be one of the pissed off folks and still get a SAO gun...knowing myself. Poor man's open 2.0?🙃

 

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Sorry if this is a stupid question but is there a reason for prohibiting SAO guns from carry optics currently in the sense that they are that much better than DA/SA or striker guns? Or is it just a roundabout way of keeping 2011 style guns out of CO?

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14 minutes ago, crg said:

is there a reason for prohibiting SAO guns from carry optics currently in the sense that they are that much better than DA/SA or striker guns?

 

From what it looked like to me is when CO was introduced it essentially was Production with a Dot on the gun.  Who knows for the reasoning this was the path that was taken.   Then they allowed 140 mm mags along with more reliable dots, it created CO that we have today.  IDPA allows SA guns in CO there, and there is far from what some complain to be an "Equipment race" or "Gear War" going on there.  To be honest it makes no sense and was short sighted in my eyes.  

 

I don't care if it is an unpopular take, but to be honest rule sets about guns, gear, and Power Factor needs to be completely overhauled to come up to date with current equipment, the direction of current gun companies product lines, and technology.  I think the sport is being held back with the current rule set.  

Edited by Boomstick303
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4 minutes ago, crg said:

Sorry if this is a stupid question but is there a reason for prohibiting SAO guns from carry optics currently in the sense that they are that much better than DA/SA or striker guns? Or is it just a roundabout way of keeping 2011 style guns out of CO?

 

Not a stupid question. Originally it was thought that single action only guns were going to be too big of an advantage and nobody would be able to compete unless they were shooting a 19/2011. Results in limited division over the last few years have shown that striker guns can compete ride alongside single action only guns. Watch a few top shooters with their dasa guns in carryops and pretty quickly you figure out they would be no faster with a 2011, but preconceived notions prevail.

 

Carry optics was based off production, when production was brought about the idea was keeping cost low so cheap guns and 9 mm was the idea. Since then the wheels have fallen off of keeping costs low with some production legal guns costing over $2,000 right out of the box. When you compare scores of production and single stack, which is a solid representation of dasa versus striker versus Sao, you see very quickly that shooters of like skill shoot the same scores.

 

I'm not too sure production wasn't based off just trying to get money from gun companies such as Glock and Beretta back when it first started. Because while 2011s and other single action guns are not going to have a real advantage when it comes to scores, people do tend to enjoy shooting single action only platforms more. I don't have scientific data to back this up, but I bet if you had a hundred people 80 plus percent would rather shoot a 19/2011 gun than a dasa or striker. I know there will be a few people on here that will say they like their Glock or CZ more than a 1911, but all else being equal they would be in the minority IMO, and those same people would probably gripe if you allowed a 19/2011 into "their" division

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