Let's talk Sao carry ops

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The division would probably be fun. But, I like shooting, so basically any combination of things could be fun. I think a Yeet cannon division would be fun.

 

We just need to figure out what should qualify as a division. Fun, might not be good enough of a reason. 

 

You're probably correct on fun not being a good enough reason. I think competitive equities the only real reason to have any divisions

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

You're probably correct on fun not being a good enough reason. I think competitive equities the only real reason to have any divisions

 

What's more equal than a yeet cannon division. Plus low cost of entry, maybe we can make it a team even and we'll call the teams gangs instead. Some day it can spin off into it's over sport like cowboy action. You'll have a street name and.... well you get the idea. 

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

What's more equal than a yeet cannon division. Plus low cost of entry, maybe we can make it a team even and we'll call the teams gangs instead. Some day it can spin off into it's over sport like cowboy action. You'll have a street name and.... well you get the idea. 

[CC3D]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

I do not agree with this at all.  What on earth makes them feel this way?  I think CO is so popular because of everything that has previously been mentioned.  Cheap guns, minor therefore ammo is cheap and available, a dot so the learning curve to hit stuff is reduced drastically.  Its the easy button of participating in the division that has made it so popular not because people feel its a superior division.  Especially for new people.  

 

I've brought 3 new shooters into this sport in the past year. All of them picked CO, but only one of them was a dot shooter prior to starting. The other 2 put dots on their guns because CO was the only division they felt like they could shoot with their 9mm. New USPSA shooters dont understand the concept of low cap prod because they weren't around when it was popular and it just sounds dumb to them- those are the shooters that chose CO by default because they "have to" in their minds. They both went and bought 200 dollar dots to compete in CO because they didn't have another option. 

 

Obviously this is just anecdotal but it happens. I bring lots of new shooters to the range to teach them about guns- I'm known as the competition shooting gun among my classmates so when people interested in getting a gun, I'm the one they normally end up talking to. Most of these people are clueless about the idea of putting a dot on their gun. People in the enthusiast set tend to think that dots are the default but in my experience that simply isn't the case. 

[Boomstick303]

3 hours ago, CC3D said:

it just sounds dumb to them- those are the shooters that chose CO by default because they "have to" in their minds.

 

Exactly.  Because downloading magazines that hold more than 10 rounds is DUMB.  They don't have to shoot CO.  They want to because the gun they brought holds more than 10 rounds.  No one is forcing them to shoot CO.

 

The reason people who were already in USPSA and are starting new shoot CO, is because CO is one of the least restrictive divisions available to shoot.  Is the average person walking into USPSA of the strict bring other than 9mm minor to the match to shoot.  That answer would be no.  Hence one of the reasons CO has blown up.  

 

Everyone's experiences are different.  In our area most new shooters show up with guns with dots on their guns.  

Edited November 22, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Let’s face it there could be compelling arguments for allowing them in and also not allowing them in. 
If CO is now a race gun division I don’t see why they won’t be allowed in. But that’s something we should be asking the board/president. 
BUT, what are the core arguments ??

I’m really trying to think deep. 
only thing I can come up with is 

1-cost

2-trigger… 

3-weight

4-Deluding other divisions. 
is there anything I’m missing ?

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

I’m trying to stay in topic. 
sometimes these hypotheticals go deeper then a simple answer. 
 

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Let’s face it there could be compelling arguments for allowing them in and also not allowing them in. 
If CO is now a race gun division I don’t see why they won’t be allowed in. But that’s something we should be asking the board/president. 
BUT, what are the core arguments ??

I’m really trying to think deep. 
only thing I can come up with is 

1-cost

2-trigger… 

3-weight

4-Deluding other divisions. 
is there anything I’m missing ?

 

5. there hasn't been a vote on it by the membership.

 

if members don't want it, then it's stupid to do it.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Number 5 members opinions. 
That should go without saying.

I hope that’s the mentality of the board. 
There’s a lot of people in this sport that have come from other sports with rules and rule change issues. 
I hope the board would tap into that experience. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

42 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

is there anything I’m missing ?

 

 

Yes a couple of B & C class shooters whining about their pet pistol not being allowed in CO.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Haha we’ll call that E and F for Argument sake

Edited November 22, 2022 by Superkaratemonkeyfighter

[rowdyb]

Nroi is on record being against member polls to make decisions. 

[OPENB]

USPSA has never had a poll to add or subtract divisions. I don't recall ever being polled by the org for anything except elections.

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Nroi is on record being against member polls to make decisions. 

 

37 minutes ago, OPENB said:

USPSA has never had a poll to add or subtract divisions. I don't recall ever being polled by the org for anything except elections.

 

a mistake imho. i don’t want a poll for every little thing, because most shooters are semi clueless about rules and equipment and competitive equity, but the board definitely needs to be taking member opinions into account if they were to ever consider something as impactful as making co another custom 2011 division.

 

of course, they are not really considering that because it is a stupid idea, but I could at least live with it if I knew a majority of shooters, supported it, which they don’t.

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

a mistake imho. i don’t want a poll for every little thing, because most shooters are semi clueless about rules and equipment and competitive equity, but the board definitely needs to be taking member opinions into account if they were to ever consider something as impactful as making co another custom 2011 division.

 

of course, they are not really considering that because it is a stupid idea, but I could at least live with it if I knew a majority of shooters, supported it, which they don’t.

 

Most people thought carryops in general was a stupid idea, and that those guys should just shoot in open. Luckily the board didn't take a vote and made a good call. Were you one of those guys that thought carryouts was a stupid idea? I was, I'll admit it

[Boomstick303]

Fudds.  Lmao they will always exist. 

[OPENB]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Most people thought carryops in general was a stupid idea, and that those guys should just shoot in open. Luckily the board didn't take a vote and made a good call. Were you one of those guys that thought carryouts was a stupid idea? I was, I'll admit it

I wasn't. I jumped on it right away when it was still 10rds. Bought a dozen Henning flat basepads, then had to buy 140mm extensions. Kinda pissed me off, but oh well. I had to ask a couple MD's to add the divsion to practiscore so I could sign up for it.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, OPENB said:

I wasn't. I jumped on it right away when it was still 10rds. Bought a dozen Henning flat basepads, then had to buy 140mm extensions. Kinda pissed me off, but oh well. I had to ask a couple MD's to add the divsion to practiscore so I could sign up for it.

 

I just remember back on these boards when carryops was being first talked about 95% of us, and like I say I include myself in that, said just shoot open.  

 

I bet if the rules as implemented now were proposed back then, everybody damn near would have said shoot open. I mean high cap mags and 59 ounce guns. The cries for just shoot open would have been even louder. And they would have still been wrong. Just like people saying SAO's shouldn't be allowed are wrong now

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Most people thought carryops in general was a stupid idea, and that those guys should just shoot in open. Luckily the board didn't take a vote and made a good call. Were you one of those guys that thought carryouts was a stupid idea? I was, I'll admit it

You can probably go back and find the dialogue between myself and britinusa on the topic. I said I though the folks advocating for CO should demonstrate there was sufficient interest by showing up with their guns and shooting open, and then calling attention to those numbers. I volunteered to break them out separately in my clubs results to demonstrate the interest. Sadly, everyone else thought the org should just do what a few loud whiners wanted. Fortunately, the org went beyond what the whiners wanted, and created something that turned out good. Yay.

[RJH]

Just now, motosapiens said:

You can probably go back and find the dialogue between myself and britinusa on the topic. I said I though the folks advocating for CO should demonstrate there was sufficient interest by showing up with their guns and shooting open, and then calling attention to those numbers. I volunteered to break them out separately in my clubs results to demonstrate the interest. Sadly, everyone else thought the org should just do what a few loud whiners wanted. Fortunately, the org went beyond what the whiners wanted, and created something that turned out good. Yay.

 

So now they should go beyond what the whiners are crying about and allow some SAOs, double yay

[Boomstick303]

In regards to polling anyone about allowing SA into CO, not that it will ever be polled.  I am curious if you walked up to a normal Level 1 match and asked everyone what a Single Action gun is, how many of them would actually know what you were talking about.  I ask this because I have no idea how many would.  I would be willing to bet the number that do not, probably would surprise you.

 

Ask that same question at a Level 2 or above and those numbers change drastically.  

 

My point here is, the same point that has been made about asking the membership in regards to any rule changes.  The people that would vote does not necessarily reflect what the membership really wants.  It is possible the right track is to not poll for rule changes.  

Edited November 23, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Boomstick303]

Just now, RJH said:

So now they should go beyond what the whiners are crying about and allow some SAOs, double yay

 

Pure GOLD!!

[OPENB]

When an entry level STI open gun was $2500 or even a little less, or a used one was sub $2000, that was a more valid argument to shoot open. But now with the demise of STI, you can't get into open for less than $5000. A $1000 set up in a Glock, Canik, or Sig is appealing. Even Sarge has said if CO existed when he started he probably would not have invested in open.

[OPENB]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

You can probably go back and find the dialogue between myself and britinusa on the topic. I said I though the folks advocating for CO should demonstrate there was sufficient interest by showing up with their guns and shooting open, and then calling attention to those numbers. I volunteered to break them out separately in my clubs results to demonstrate the interest. Sadly, everyone else thought the org should just do what a few loud whiners wanted. Fortunately, the org went beyond what the whiners wanted, and created something that turned out good. Yay.

A rare success story for the org.

[motosapiens]

42 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

So now they should go beyond what the whiners are crying about and allow some SAOs, double yay

right, they should go behind what the whiners are crying about (adding SAO so they can have a competitive advantage in an existing division) and simply create a new division with SAO, minor/major, and frame mount optics.

 

I think we already proved that less restriction is better when creating a new division.