Dq-ed

[edpmedic]

Well I was DQ-ed from a match a couple of months ago and it has been on my mind.

The problem is I am messing up and am having a hard time fixing the problem.

I find myself breaking the 180 on mag changes.

On my G19 or 1911's I go to release the mag and for some reason turn the gun with the muzzle towards the left side.

Part of the problem is having to change hand position to reach the mag release. The other part is a VERY BAD HABIT and I know it.

Since my DQ I have not had a chance to shoot in a match. So when I practice or just shoot at the range. I find myself having to DQ myself.

I try to either keep pointing down range, and if I keep my attention and say it to myself I am ok. When I go into operating mode and think of the target or just doing a mag change, I see myself starting to turn the pistol.

I feel like a fool doing this now that I have been made aware of it. Besides putting extended mag release on my guns is it just practice to break this habit.

Edited December 1, 2005 by edpmedic

[XRe]

Lots of very slow dry fire, emphasizing perfectly the motion you want to be doing. Gradually - slowly - build up the speed...

How, exactly, are you turning the gun to where you break the 180? This is the first I've heard of someone breaking the 180 on a reload that didn't involve movement to the weak side - I'm just trying to picture it

[BritinUSA]

+1

Dry fire practice is the only way to solve this. I have found that the gun will point to the left a little during the reload but stay mostly parallel to the ground. The gun would be pointing around to the 11 o'clock position.

There should be no need for more lateral movement than this. I used to have problems with fumbled reloads. I got into the habit of doing 50 slow reloads every evening. At the end of the month I could do it easily - as long as I didn't think about it.

Edited December 1, 2005 by BritinUSA

[kimel]

Let me guess....short fingers/small hands?

You may also want to try an extended mag release button on the 1911s. There are more styles of these out there than you can imagine. Peruse the various 1911 parts folks and see what you like.

You may need to replace the mag catch with a drilled and tapped version if you don't have one but that isn't expensive or difficult to do.

Dave's advice is spot on though. Most of us have made that same mistake and had to work through it.

You are doing the right thing by being conscious of this during practice. Far too many people (myself included now and then) get sloppy during practice sessions.

Once you feel reasonably confident find someone to practice with you and run you through some practice stages so you can build confidence.

I do know of a shooter that has very small hands who uses the weak hand thumb to punch the mag release as they take the hand off the grip and start going for the mag. It looks REALLY goofy but it works for him.

[Airic]

This was my first DQ also, I did a mag change on the run moving to the right ( im left handed) and I turned the gun sweeping the whole crowd behind me.

I agree w/ the posts above me, dry fire slow to work into a change that is safe.

[XRe]

This was my first DQ also, I did a mag change on the run moving to the right ( im left handed) and I turned the gun sweeping the whole crowd behind me.

That's definitely the common way. If I have a course of fire where I can choose movement direction, I usually move from left to right (I'm right handed), unless there's a significant advantage the other way around. Reloads moving the other way are more awkward for me, and there's the added disaster potential...

I have wide, short fingered hands. I have a Wilson extended catch (the one w/ the screw on button) in my 1911, and I've hogged out the left side grip pretty deep for my thumb - check it out in the Used Trojan gallery thread. That helps a bunch. I reach the catch without shifting my hand at all - and with an appropriate weight spring in the catch, I don't get mags dropping at inopportune times.

I sat and played with the gun for a while - without doing something way too extreme, I can't figure out how to flip the gun around to break the 180 while going for the catch - even with shifting my strong hand on the gun to get to the button. Gotta be doing something real wierd to get there, I think...

[kimel]

It's pretty easy to do Dave.

Facing the backstop flip the gun around in the right hand, backstrap up to the first knuckle on the fingers, so the safety hits the thumb. Now imagine having small hands and/or short thumbs or keeping your thumb extended for some reason.

If I do this I get to about 160 degrees but a bit shorter thumb, a thumb extended further from the grip than necessary, or turn the body a bit and you are over the 180.

Speaking of moving "the high disaster factor way"...

I have a trick I use when I *HAVE* to move right to left (being right handed). I came up with this one on a stage at Area 1 this year where you had to move right to left and there was going to be a mandatory mag change. I just "run" sideways (more of a shuffle really) keeping my sternum aimed at the backstop. It's hard to describe but several of the guys on my squad that hadn't shot yet adopted it on their runs.

This helps keep those mag changes safe and also made reaquiring the right index dead simple.

When I got home I started practicing moving and shooting on the move this way and I think it holds promise. But I need more practice in shooting on the move in general.

Matt Burkett covers some of this type of movement on his videos too although he does it a bit differently than I do.

[ong45]

Try getting the reload done before moving ( especially when you move right to left)

You might find that this will improve your reload as well as being safer.

Sometimes doing just one thing at a time is the better option.

James

[dajarrel]

edpmedic,

I popped one off into the overhead at an indoor range one night. You know...reloads with the finger in the trigger guard. How this relates is that I worked several months to break myself of the habit of keeping the finger in the guard.

What the previous posters are talking about is the ticket. repetition, repetition , repetition in your dry fire routine. Enforce the good habits while eliminating the bad.

I actually talked to myself (not very suprising) and would repeat, 'finger, finger,finger' during the mag changes.

You can work your way through it.

FWIW

dj

[Genghis]

Edpmedic, are you pulling the gun in closer to your body and maybe down during reloads? I'm working on keeping the gun near the line of sight to the target during reloads, so I don't lose time pulling it down and offline. When I do it right, the motion is about 80% twisting my wrist, and about 20% bending my elbow. So the muzzle points a little to the left, but nowhere near 90 degrees.

[MikeFoley]

Try pulling your strong hand elbow in closer to your body, and rotate the gun 1/4 turn counterclockwise. For right handed shooters, clockwise. With the gun on its side, there is less chance of you breaking the 180. You will want to run to the left whenever possible to keep your muzzle in a generally downrange position. As others have said, with the gun closer to your body, you will be more aware of your muzzle direction.

Edited December 1, 2005 by fomeister

[.40AET]

Travis Reload

Download the video and watch it as much as you can. It's smokin'!

<Fixed link>

Edited December 1, 2005 by .40AET

[XRe]

Facing the backstop flip the gun around in the right hand, backstrap up to the first knuckle on the fingers, so the safety hits the thumb. Now imagine having small hands and/or short thumbs or keeping your thumb extended for some reason.

That was the only way I found that I could make it could happen. Keeping the backstrap in roughly the same place, you should be able to reach the button by flipping the gun only about 45 degrees (which is what my short thumbs require without an extended button and with normal grips on the gun). Also, if you have to flip like this, drop the mag, regrip the gun, then cant it to get access to the magwell - doing both (reaching for the button and rotating the gun to get to the magwell) seems to get the muzzle much closer to the 180 for me.

I can't recall what Burkett teaches. My technique for moving weak-side and reloading is to rotate the lower body and start moving, but keep my torso roughly downrange while performing the reload. Post reload, gun points immediately downrange, and the upper body rotates back to even w/ the lower body, and convert to "haul ass" mode. As James says, strive to nail the reload right away, so there's not a lot of awkward stuff. Sometimes, though, shooting L-10, you have to perform a reload in what would otherwise be considered a non-optimal spot. It's good to have this trick in the bag for those occasions.

[iweiny]

I can't recall what Burkett teaches. My technique for moving weak-side and reloading is to rotate the lower body and start moving, but keep my torso roughly downrange while performing the reload. Post reload, gun points immediately downrange, and the upper body rotates back to even w/ the lower body, and convert to "haul ass" mode. As James says, strive to nail the reload right away, so there's not a lot of awkward stuff. Sometimes, though, shooting L-10, you have to perform a reload in what would otherwise be considered a non-optimal spot. It's good to have this trick in the bag for those occasions.

+1 on the L10 thing. The other factor is if you have a slow reload like me you want to be doing it on the move. This is tricky. In addition to extended buttons I have thought about the ambi-releases out there. Although I have not convinced myself enough to buy one yet. Check out this post for some more info: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...09entry342109

I have been training to twist my wrist while moving to the weak side. I basically turn the gun toward my strong side. The problem with this is the mag insersion is a little awkward; being out and off to the right (my strong side). I think I have naturally progressed to getting the reload done early and then moving. But I am not sure of this.

The other thing I have done with small hands is I have thin grips and shoot a single stack 1911. This and a short trigger helped with my trigger pull as well. This will probably not help on the Glock though.

Finally, +10 on the practice thing.

Do tell us what you do to fix it,

Ira

[short_round]

My technique for moving weak-side and reloading is to rotate the lower body and start moving, but keep my torso roughly downrange while performing the reload. Post reload, gun points immediately downrange, and the upper body rotates back to even w/ the lower body, and convert to "haul ass" mode.

I think this is a good starting point. Another thing to try that may require less coordination or tweaking/twisting of the body is that if you feel you must begin to move before the reload is done, do side steps while you are reloading instead of turning any part of your body. This way you are moving in the general direction that you want to go but still facing down range. Once the reload is done then "convert to "haul ass" mode."

[GuildSF4]

I can't recall what Burkett teaches. My technique for moving weak-side and reloading is to rotate the lower body and start moving, but keep my torso roughly downrange while performing the reload. Post reload, gun points immediately downrange, and the upper body rotates back to even w/ the lower body, and convert to "haul ass" mode.

This is basicly what I do when moving toward the weak hand. (As James said, I also try to get the reload done as soon as possible.)

[edpmedic]

Thank You all...This is really helping.

I never thought I had small hands and fingers but I guess this is true.

are you pulling the gun in closer to your body and maybe down during reloads

Yes I see myself doing that now that you brought it to my attention.

I am going to get extended mag release button's. I was trying not to since I do use them for carry. I guess it will not cause to much of a problem for normal use.

[Rikarin]

It's not help but I should'be DQed many times!!! Its soooo hard to have everything right when you are pumped up with adrenaline.... The guys at Richmond, my home club, are just bunches of sweet pies and has given me a slack on me this.

I changed to push the button with my left thumb, which you'd like to avoid if you can because it takes time bit longer, but it made a bit of difference. But I still get close (or break ) 180 and put an pink dot on where you see on mag well, so that when I see the pink, the gun wouldn't look sideways...

[ima45dv8]

I never thought I had small hands and fingers but I guess this is true.

Or, maybe not....

A buddy's girlfriend started shooting with us and they were sharing his gun until she got her own. It turned out that she could easily reach the mag release without shifting her grip or flipping the gun, while he could not. Knowing very well that his hands and fingers were longer than hers, they sat on the couch together and analysed what was happening.

What they discovered was that while his hands and fingers are longer, they are also stronger and thicker than hers. That extra meat and muscle in the palms that many men have has the effect of holding the actual skeletal portion of the hand further away from the backstrap of the gun and makes reaching the release more difficult.

If that doesn't sound right, try seeing how close you can get to the mag release of your gun without shifting your grip. If you can reach it, cool. Then put on a glove with some insulation or padding in the palm. It has the same effect of holding your hand further away from the gun and makes it harder to reach all the way around to the mag release.

It was an interesting revelation but doesn't address the issue of reaching the release safely. The advice given before of practicing at a snail's pace while keeping the muzzle downrange is spot on. Go slow and build the good habit. Speed will come later.

Another point someone made recently is that it's also good practice for learning to deal with a poorly acquired grip on the draw. Learning to move the gun around in your hand and work it back into the proper firing grip can be pretty useful.

[raz-0]

A note on mental approach.

Rather than DQing yourself during practice (i.e. focusing on your mistake repeatedly), try focusing on your proper reloads. Rather than mentally reinforcing every detail of your mistake, reinforce the numerous successes during practice. After all, isn't that the point of practice?

I find it makes a significant difference in getting the most bang for my buck in practice time.

[kimel]

Extended mag buttons are NOT compatible with carry for most people. I wouldn't dream of putting one on my carry gun anyway.

However, they are threaded so it is a super easy operation to pop them off for carry and on for the match.

[edpmedic]

Rather than DQing yourself during practice (i.e. focusing on your mistake repeatedly), try focusing on your proper reloads

Your right about that.

[konkapot]

Self diagnosing can be very hard....especially if you are newer to shooting. Have another shooter watch you do about 100 reloads....having somebody else watch could probably tell you about a lot of things you aren't seeing. I'm not 200% convinced that this is as big a problem as you might think it is.

FY42385

[Stuck in C]

Its not only your re-load technique and hand position, but your body position. If you are standing with your shoulders and chest squarely pointing downrange with the pistol in front of your body its almost impossible to break the 180 during a reload. The problem comes when you are moving left (if you are right handed) or standing still and facing left looking at where you are about to move. You need to learn to keep your upper body facing down range during a mag change-this requires twisting at the waist while you move. If this seems too awkward or slow-then you have to really push the pistol over to the right to avoid the 180. I find it easier and more consistant to twist at the waist and keep my shoulders square to the backstop. That way my reloads are the same whatever way I'm moving or standing.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I don't know your size but i'm 6'2" tall when i spread my hand appart it's 9.5" from my thumb tip to my pinki tip.... i have been told i have fairly large hands, that said... PUT an extended mag release on your glock.. a factory one... round the corners with sand paper. a bit.. i have a 17 i CCW with that way. put a wilson (or similar) "tactical" extended mag release on your 1911 they are both inexpensive most guns are not conducive to fast reloads the way we do them.

Guns aren't made to be reloaded... thats why they have so many bullets in them

i seriously think you need to think about this a lot, they are not competition only modifications. i carry those guns. and would do the same on any CCW gun. they aren't big gawdy buttons but give you a much better angle to release the mag.

Like noted above 50 or so SLOW PERFECT reloads a day. more if you want but don't speed up to bad habbits. you see a bad habit. correct one mistake with 10 correct ones.