Changing to backup gun during match

[jimbullet]

Hi,

I just wanted to check some thoughts on the rules here. We had an instance during a match that the RO declined the shooter from switching to his back up pistol to continue the match with.

 

The situation was that the competitor was using a gun during day 1 and on day 2 swapped over to another gun which is identical except its finish. The main gun was still functional and was not broken in anyway but the competitor just wanted to switched to the back up gun.

 

My thoughts were that there was no material difference between the two pistols except one was an STI Edge and the other was an STI DVC model. Thoughts please? Can a competitor switch guns anytime during the match?

[ima45dv8]

 

5.1.7      Competitors must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original firearm and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute firearm and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:
     5.1.7.1 The substitute firearm satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.
     5.1.7.2 In using the substitute firearm the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.
     5.1.7.3 The competitor’s replacement firearm and its appropriate ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of whether or not the original firearm was previously tested.
     5.1.7.4 If the original firearm/ammunition was not previously tested, and if the original firearm has already been used on a stage and can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an inability to safely fire the firearm), then the original firearm and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing.

 

It doesn't seem like the shooter's Day 1 Gun became unserviceable.

He could easily lie about it, but that's not someone most of would want to be squadded with. 

[jimbullet]

ah got it. That makes perfect sense now. Its about whether the original gun used is still serviceable / functional.

 

Thanks for that clarification.  

[konkapot]

@jimbullet do you shoot IPSC or USPSA? Are there differences in the rules for this type of thing?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, jimbullet said:

ah got it. That makes perfect sense now. Its about whether the original gun used is still serviceable / functional.

 

Thanks for that clarification.  

 

If you shoot standard division then you need to review these rules instead: https://legacy.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf

[jwhittin]

Did the competitor ask the RO before or after he switched guns?

[Boomstick303]

7 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

5.1.7      Competitors must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original firearm and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute firearm and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

 

I do have a question about this rule.  If an optic goes out on the gun, are you allowed to change to an entirely new gun, or must you install a working optic on the original gun that is still working?  Nothing is wrong with the gun therefore are you required to keep using the gun with a backup optic?  Or is the shooter allowed to switch to a complete backup gun?

[RJH]

9 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I do have a question about this rule.  If an optic goes out on the gun, are you allowed to change to an entirely new gun, or must you install a working optic on the original gun that is still working?  Nothing is wrong with the gun therefore are you required to keep using the gun with a backup optic?  Or is the shooter allowed to switch to a complete backup gun?

 

Here would be my interpretation: the optic is a sight which is an intergal part of the gun, so if your optics not working your gun is not working. If a person has a backup gun ready that meets division requirements, I don't see why anybody would not allow them to use it with a justification from the rules

[Sarge]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Here would be my interpretation: the optic is a sight which is an intergal part of the gun, so if your optics not working your gun is not working. If a person has a backup gun ready that meets division requirements, I don't see why anybody would not allow them to use it with a justification from the rules

Correct. And I have seen this happen more than a few times. 

[George Jones]

You don't have to make it up.  The rules address it:

     and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match

[Schutzenmeister]

4 hours ago, konkapot said:

@jimbullet do you shoot IPSC or USPSA? Are there differences in the rules for this type of thing?

 

No ... The rules under IPSC and USPSA are virtually identical on this point.

[jimbullet]

10 hours ago, konkapot said:

@jimbullet do you shoot IPSC or USPSA? Are there differences in the rules for this type of thing?

IPSC 

 

10 hours ago, jwhittin said:

Did the competitor ask the RO before or after he switched guns?

Yes he informed the RO about using the back up gun and there was a debate about it but in the end the RO declined. 

[ima45dv8]

Gamers are gonna game it. That's what this sport is based upon:

"If it (the rulebook) doesn't say I can't...I can!."

The idea was and is, don't break the rules, but play fully within them. Paint right up to the edge of every line.

 

Some enterprising shooters sometimes wanted to switch to guns that looked similar, but played to different strengths with respect to the upcoming stages (at least that what they thought). A rule was put into place to discourage/disallow those attempts. 

[Schutzenmeister]

Bottom line:  Changing firearms without permission (in advance) from the Range Master* is subject to disqualification under 10.6 (Unsportsmanlike conduct.)  This is the same for both IPSC and USPSA matches.

 

*Note:  The RM is the specific individual with the authority here, by rule.  The RO lacks the authority to grant permission.  As @ima45dv8 points out, there's a reason for this!  If you're the RO and someone wants to change guns, CALL THE RM!  If you find they changed guns and didn't have permission from the RM to so do, CALL THE RM!  This is USLC folks ... Let the RM deal with it.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Schutzenmeister

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Bottom line:  Changing firearms without permission (in advance) from the Range Master* is subject to disqualification under 10.6 (Unsportsmanlike conduct.)  This is the same for both IPSC and USPSA matches.

 

*Note:  The RM is the specific individual with the authority here, by rule.  The RO lacks the authority to grant permission.  As @ima45dv8 points out, there's a reason for this!  If you're the RO and someone wants to change guns, CALL THE RM!  If you find they changed guns and didn't have permission from the RM to so do, CALL THE RM!  This is USLC folks ... Let the RM deal with it.

Yeah I remember a few years ago I had work done to one of my guns. So I asked to switch  about half way through the match so I could verify it ran 100%. NOPE! LOL

[terrydoc]

17 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Bottom line:  Changing firearms without permission (in advance) from the Range Master* is subject to disqualification under 10.6 (Unsportsmanlike conduct.)  This is the same for both IPSC and USPSA matches.

 

*Note:  The RM is the specific individual with the authority here, by rule.  The RO lacks the authority to grant permission.  As @ima45dv8 points out, there's a reason for this!  If you're the RO and someone wants to change guns, CALL THE RM!  If you find they changed guns and didn't have permission from the RM to so do, CALL THE RM!  This is USLC folks ... Let the RM deal with it.

For IPSC  what would you rule in regards to optic? Would the optic have to be the same brand, model or moa? 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, terrydoc said:

For IPSC  what would you rule in regards to optic? Would the optic have to be the same brand, model or moa? 

 

The rules are silent on any of those details.  So long as the firearm (complete firearm) complies with division rules, anything beyond that is made up on the spot.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Schutzenmeister]

4 hours ago, terrydoc said:

For IPSC  what would you rule in regards to optic? Would the optic have to be the same brand, model or moa? 

 

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The rules are silent on any of those details.  So long as the firearm (complete firearm) complies with division rules, anything beyond that is made up on the spot.

 

Both USPSA and IPSC 5.1.7 are worded the same on this ...

 

5.1.7   Competitor must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. [...]

 

5.1.3 defines "Types of Sights" as Open (i.e., iron sights) or Optical/Electronic (i.e., some type of dot).

 

An Optical sight need not be the same brand, moa, or whatever ... but it must be an optical sight.  That is, if you started with a dot, you must continue with a dot and cannot switch to open (iron) sights or vice versa.  This is in part to prevent the "gaming" types of scenarios to which @ima45dv8 was referring earlier.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

 

Both USPSA and IPSC 5.1.7 are worded the same on this ...

 

5.1.7   Competitor must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. [...]

 

5.1.3 defines "Types of Sights" as Open (i.e., iron sights) or Optical/Electronic (i.e., some type of dot).

 

An Optical sight need not be the same brand, moa, or whatever ... but it must be an optical sight.  That is, if you started with a dot, you must continue with a dot and cannot switch to open (iron) sights or vice versa.  This is in part to prevent the "gaming" types of scenarios to which @ima45dv8 was referring earlier.

Hmm, I carried my production rig for years before I got a backup open gun. I was told that would be fine

[Thomas H]

5 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Hmm, I carried my production rig for years before I got a backup open gun. I was told that would be fine

 

I know the current direction given to RMs is "if the old gun is broken and the new gun is legal in the division, let it happen."  I know also that asking the competitor to show directly how the old gun is no longer serviceable (and thus the competitor really DOES need to change guns) is perfectly fine, especially if the new gun (matching sights or not) seems to suddenly be REALLY perfectly for the next stage. 

 

[GrumpyOne]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Hmm, I carried my production rig for years before I got a backup open gun. I was told that would be fine

Sarge, even though the rules say no, I think they probably would allow that kind of switch, as in no way, shape, or form would you be gaining a competitive advantage, and in fact, you'd be losing quite an advantage (no optic and minor ammo scoring, unless you were gonna shoot major out of your production gun). You'd finish the match, but you'd essentially be shooting for fun.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

11 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Sarge, even though the rules say no, I think they probably would allow that kind of switch, as in no way, shape, or form would you be gaining a competitive advantage, and in fact, you'd be losing quite an advantage (no optic and minor ammo scoring, unless you were gonna shoot major out of your production gun). You'd finish the match, but you'd essentially be shooting for fun.

 

Not sure which rule says no to grabbing a production gun and rig to finish the match as long as the shooter stays in Open division and the PF is changed to minor.

 

A Production pistol and equipment don't violate any of Open division's equipment rules so 5.1.7.1 is satisfied.  And as you pointed out definitely satisfies 5.1.7.2.

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[GrumpyOne]

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Not sure which rule says no to grabbing a production gun and rig to finish the match as long as the shooter stays in Open division and the PF is changed to minor.

 

A Production pistol and equipment don't violate any of Open division's equipment rules so 5.1.7.1 is satisfied.  And as you pointed out definitely satisfies 5.1.7.2.

 

Well, technically, changing from an open gun with an optic to a production gun with iron sights violates 5.1.7

[ima45dv8]

In what way does it violate 5.1.7?

Just about anything this side of a PCC meets the minimum requirements for Open.

[NMBOpen]

4 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

In what way does it violate 5.1.7?

Just about anything this side of a PCC meets the minimum requirements for Open.

+100