jimbullet Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 Hi, I just wanted to check some thoughts on the rules here. We had an instance during a match that the RO declined the shooter from switching to his back up pistol to continue the match with. The situation was that the competitor was using a gun during day 1 and on day 2 swapped over to another gun which is identical except its finish. The main gun was still functional and was not broken in anyway but the competitor just wanted to switched to the back up gun. My thoughts were that there was no material difference between the two pistols except one was an STI Edge and the other was an STI DVC model. Thoughts please? Can a competitor switch guns anytime during the match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 5.1.7 Competitors must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original firearm and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute firearm and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied: 5.1.7.1 The substitute firearm satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division. 5.1.7.2 In using the substitute firearm the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage. 5.1.7.3 The competitor’s replacement firearm and its appropriate ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of whether or not the original firearm was previously tested. 5.1.7.4 If the original firearm/ammunition was not previously tested, and if the original firearm has already been used on a stage and can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an inability to safely fire the firearm), then the original firearm and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing. It doesn't seem like the shooter's Day 1 Gun became unserviceable. He could easily lie about it, but that's not someone most of would want to be squadded with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbullet Posted April 19, 2022 Author Share Posted April 19, 2022 ah got it. That makes perfect sense now. Its about whether the original gun used is still serviceable / functional. Thanks for that clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 @jimbullet do you shoot IPSC or USPSA? Are there differences in the rules for this type of thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 3 hours ago, jimbullet said: ah got it. That makes perfect sense now. Its about whether the original gun used is still serviceable / functional. Thanks for that clarification. If you shoot standard division then you need to review these rules instead: https://legacy.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhittin Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 Did the competitor ask the RO before or after he switched guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 7 hours ago, ima45dv8 said: 5.1.7 Competitors must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original firearm and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute firearm and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied: I do have a question about this rule. If an optic goes out on the gun, are you allowed to change to an entirely new gun, or must you install a working optic on the original gun that is still working? Nothing is wrong with the gun therefore are you required to keep using the gun with a backup optic? Or is the shooter allowed to switch to a complete backup gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 9 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: I do have a question about this rule. If an optic goes out on the gun, are you allowed to change to an entirely new gun, or must you install a working optic on the original gun that is still working? Nothing is wrong with the gun therefore are you required to keep using the gun with a backup optic? Or is the shooter allowed to switch to a complete backup gun? Here would be my interpretation: the optic is a sight which is an intergal part of the gun, so if your optics not working your gun is not working. If a person has a backup gun ready that meets division requirements, I don't see why anybody would not allow them to use it with a justification from the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 8 minutes ago, RJH said: Here would be my interpretation: the optic is a sight which is an intergal part of the gun, so if your optics not working your gun is not working. If a person has a backup gun ready that meets division requirements, I don't see why anybody would not allow them to use it with a justification from the rules Correct. And I have seen this happen more than a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 You don't have to make it up. The rules address it: and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 4 hours ago, konkapot said: @jimbullet do you shoot IPSC or USPSA? Are there differences in the rules for this type of thing? No ... The rules under IPSC and USPSA are virtually identical on this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbullet Posted April 19, 2022 Author Share Posted April 19, 2022 10 hours ago, konkapot said: @jimbullet do you shoot IPSC or USPSA? Are there differences in the rules for this type of thing? IPSC 10 hours ago, jwhittin said: Did the competitor ask the RO before or after he switched guns? Yes he informed the RO about using the back up gun and there was a debate about it but in the end the RO declined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted April 19, 2022 Share Posted April 19, 2022 Gamers are gonna game it. That's what this sport is based upon: "If it (the rulebook) doesn't say I can't...I can!." The idea was and is, don't break the rules, but play fully within them. Paint right up to the edge of every line. Some enterprising shooters sometimes wanted to switch to guns that looked similar, but played to different strengths with respect to the upcoming stages (at least that what they thought). A rule was put into place to discourage/disallow those attempts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 (edited) Bottom line: Changing firearms without permission (in advance) from the Range Master* is subject to disqualification under 10.6 (Unsportsmanlike conduct.) This is the same for both IPSC and USPSA matches. *Note: The RM is the specific individual with the authority here, by rule. The RO lacks the authority to grant permission. As @ima45dv8 points out, there's a reason for this! If you're the RO and someone wants to change guns, CALL THE RM! If you find they changed guns and didn't have permission from the RM to so do, CALL THE RM! This is USLC folks ... Let the RM deal with it. Edited April 20, 2022 by Schutzenmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: Bottom line: Changing firearms without permission (in advance) from the Range Master* is subject to disqualification under 10.6 (Unsportsmanlike conduct.) This is the same for both IPSC and USPSA matches. *Note: The RM is the specific individual with the authority here, by rule. The RO lacks the authority to grant permission. As @ima45dv8 points out, there's a reason for this! If you're the RO and someone wants to change guns, CALL THE RM! If you find they changed guns and didn't have permission from the RM to so do, CALL THE RM! This is USLC folks ... Let the RM deal with it. Yeah I remember a few years ago I had work done to one of my guns. So I asked to switch about half way through the match so I could verify it ran 100%. NOPE! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 17 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: Bottom line: Changing firearms without permission (in advance) from the Range Master* is subject to disqualification under 10.6 (Unsportsmanlike conduct.) This is the same for both IPSC and USPSA matches. *Note: The RM is the specific individual with the authority here, by rule. The RO lacks the authority to grant permission. As @ima45dv8 points out, there's a reason for this! If you're the RO and someone wants to change guns, CALL THE RM! If you find they changed guns and didn't have permission from the RM to so do, CALL THE RM! This is USLC folks ... Let the RM deal with it. For IPSC what would you rule in regards to optic? Would the optic have to be the same brand, model or moa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, terrydoc said: For IPSC what would you rule in regards to optic? Would the optic have to be the same brand, model or moa? The rules are silent on any of those details. So long as the firearm (complete firearm) complies with division rules, anything beyond that is made up on the spot. Edited April 21, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 4 hours ago, terrydoc said: For IPSC what would you rule in regards to optic? Would the optic have to be the same brand, model or moa? 3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: The rules are silent on any of those details. So long as the firearm (complete firearm) complies with division rules, anything beyond that is made up on the spot. Both USPSA and IPSC 5.1.7 are worded the same on this ... 5.1.7 Competitor must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. [...] 5.1.3 defines "Types of Sights" as Open (i.e., iron sights) or Optical/Electronic (i.e., some type of dot). An Optical sight need not be the same brand, moa, or whatever ... but it must be an optical sight. That is, if you started with a dot, you must continue with a dot and cannot switch to open (iron) sights or vice versa. This is in part to prevent the "gaming" types of scenarios to which @ima45dv8 was referring earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 4 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: Both USPSA and IPSC 5.1.7 are worded the same on this ... 5.1.7 Competitor must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. [...] 5.1.3 defines "Types of Sights" as Open (i.e., iron sights) or Optical/Electronic (i.e., some type of dot). An Optical sight need not be the same brand, moa, or whatever ... but it must be an optical sight. That is, if you started with a dot, you must continue with a dot and cannot switch to open (iron) sights or vice versa. This is in part to prevent the "gaming" types of scenarios to which @ima45dv8 was referring earlier. Hmm, I carried my production rig for years before I got a backup open gun. I was told that would be fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, Sarge said: Hmm, I carried my production rig for years before I got a backup open gun. I was told that would be fine I know the current direction given to RMs is "if the old gun is broken and the new gun is legal in the division, let it happen." I know also that asking the competitor to show directly how the old gun is no longer serviceable (and thus the competitor really DOES need to change guns) is perfectly fine, especially if the new gun (matching sights or not) seems to suddenly be REALLY perfectly for the next stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Sarge said: Hmm, I carried my production rig for years before I got a backup open gun. I was told that would be fine Sarge, even though the rules say no, I think they probably would allow that kind of switch, as in no way, shape, or form would you be gaining a competitive advantage, and in fact, you'd be losing quite an advantage (no optic and minor ammo scoring, unless you were gonna shoot major out of your production gun). You'd finish the match, but you'd essentially be shooting for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: Sarge, even though the rules say no, I think they probably would allow that kind of switch, as in no way, shape, or form would you be gaining a competitive advantage, and in fact, you'd be losing quite an advantage (no optic and minor ammo scoring, unless you were gonna shoot major out of your production gun). You'd finish the match, but you'd essentially be shooting for fun. Not sure which rule says no to grabbing a production gun and rig to finish the match as long as the shooter stays in Open division and the PF is changed to minor. A Production pistol and equipment don't violate any of Open division's equipment rules so 5.1.7.1 is satisfied. And as you pointed out definitely satisfies 5.1.7.2. Edited April 21, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: Not sure which rule says no to grabbing a production gun and rig to finish the match as long as the shooter stays in Open division and the PF is changed to minor. A Production pistol and equipment don't violate any of Open division's equipment rules so 5.1.7.1 is satisfied. And as you pointed out definitely satisfies 5.1.7.2. Well, technically, changing from an open gun with an optic to a production gun with iron sights violates 5.1.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 In what way does it violate 5.1.7? Just about anything this side of a PCC meets the minimum requirements for Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said: In what way does it violate 5.1.7? Just about anything this side of a PCC meets the minimum requirements for Open. +100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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