Delayed DQ for 180 violation

[PoorMansOpen]

Not sure if this is the right sub, but here goes anyways. 

At my local USPSA match (Level 1, nobody's winning anything, just here to have fun) that I have been running with my dad for about a year and a half (we do all the admin as well as a few of the stages) when I supposedly broke the 180 while reloading. I don't dispute the call, but it wasn't made until after I had completed the stage about 10rds later. I finished shooting and heard this from the RO: "If you are finished, unload and show clear. If clear, slide down, hammer down, and holster. Oh, also I should have called it when it happened, but you broke the 180 and are DQ'ed." (Paraphrasing). My question is, both for now and future reference, does the RO have to call the violation when it happens for it to be valid? I only ask that because multiple RO's at our range have made that claim before. Its really no big deal, just a little miffed because I could have DQ'ed at least four other shooters on that stage if I was RO'ing, one for a 180 (was clearly acknowledged by the other RO who was running him) and the other three for fingers on the rigger while moving or reloading. Plus one shooter (granted he was new) broke the 180 on the previous stage, the same RO acknowledged it and did nothing. We also had a shooter with an ND a few months back and the same RO who DQ'ed me made the decision to let them keep shooting. Y'all let me know, am I overreacting or is it a little bit of unfair descision making.

 

TL;DR RO didn't call a 180 violation until after the stage was completed, DQ'ed me anyways, yet let two others who clearly broke the 180 keep shooting. Same RO has let a shooter with a ND keep shooting. Question is, does the RO have to make the DQ call at the time of the violation?

[RJH]

Should make the call when it happens, but sometimes safer to not, so depends.

 

Should be consistent and call DQs by the rules regardless of who is shooting, whether match director or noob

[PoorMansOpen]

11 minutes ago, RJH said:

Should make the call when it happens, but sometimes safer to not, so depends.

 

Should be consistent and call DQs by the rules regardless of who is shooting, whether match director or noob

That's what I was thinking. The 180 break was your typical wrist flick when reloading, barely broke and went downrange immediately, so he had plenty of time where it was safe to call before i was finished. And yea, i have no problem being DQ'ed for a 180, it just needs to be consistent like you said.

[JWBaldree]

Can one call a slightly delayed DQ? Yes; sometimes the shooter doesn't here the word STOP, sometimes the RO may feel that 'shocking' the shooter might make him do something even more egregious, and sometimes the RO needs a second or two to process the violation to be certain of it, and by then the shooter has completed the COF. IMO, however, the DQ had better be issued before the Range is Clear command.

 

Now for the part you aren't going to like.As MD's you and your dad are setting the tone for the match. From the quality of the stages to the admin and stats process to the quality and consistency of the ROing. From your OP, it sounds like you have been equally inconsistent in applying the rules, and got a little upset because that inconsistency didn't work out for you. The biggest headache you'll have going forward is fixing your club's RO problems without making it look personal. Having shot at many clubs in many states, plus sectional, state, area and national matches, I can guarantee you that competitors value consistent, fair and accurate officiating. I can also guarantee you that the biggest club killer is being seen as lax on safety rules or club nepotism with regard to calls.

 

Does your club have certified ROs or CROs that have kept current and that are respected? If not, do they have uncertified people that know the rules, and are respected for fair application of said rules? Because these people are going to make up your new ROing committee that is going to fix your problem over the next few matches. You should be working on getting the whole club up to speed with regards to the proper range commands, the responsibilities of both ROs (the guy on the timer and the guy running the tablet, both are ROs and have areas of responsibilities for the COF), and your expectations for how the match is going to be run going forward. Plus you'll have the added challenge of doing this without making it seem like sour grapes.

[konkapot]

What a mess. 

 

"Supposedly broke the 180"

"Just here to have fun."

You want to know if the DQ is "valid."

"The 180 was your typical wrist flick..."

 

It's not a "get out of DQ free" if the RO doesn't call it within x seconds or x feet. A DQ is for SAFETY. Safety is the one thing that keeps this sport legit and allowed all over the world and the country. 

 

If you've RO'd a lot, you know just how fast a DQ-able thing can happen, and it could easily take a few seconds for a hot/tired/surprised RO to make the call. 

 

Odd that your focus is on when the RO called the DQ. 

 

You let 4 unsafe things happen one ONE STAGE? 

 

What a mess. 

[PoorMansOpen]

32 minutes ago, JWBaldree said:

From your OP, it sounds like you have been equally inconsistent in applying the rules, and got a little upset because that inconsistency didn't work out for you.

Guilty as charged lol.

What I forgot to mention in my OP is that I am 16, so even though I have read the entire handbook and know the all the rules, the certified RO's and old timers don't really listen to me. Most of the times, including the ND I mentioned, I have strongly urged to DQ as it is obviously a huge safety issue. (The respose is usually something like "We are all here to have fun, nobody got hurt and nobody us winning prizes so it doesn't matter.) I think our biggest issue rn is that instead of one MD, we have 5, all of whom dont always agree. Perhaps the best possible course of action would be to either hand the "authority" over to my dad who more people will listen to and keep him up to date on all the rules, procedures, etc. or realize that I might have to push some buttons and ruffle some feathers if people want to be lenient on rules. I agree that I have to be catious on not making it seem personal. As far as RO's, we have about 5 or 6 certified RO's that are at our matches, plus a few (including myself) that are uncertified.

[Robertwil18]

If facts presented are 100% accurate and without any bias, it sounds like a club as a whole in need of some mentorship.  

Edited March 20, 2022 by Robertwil18

[PoorMansOpen]

21 minutes ago, konkapot said:

What a mess. 

 

"Supposedly broke the 180"

"Just here to have fun."

You want to know if the DQ is "valid."

"The 180 was your typical wrist flick..."

 

It's not a "get out of DQ free" if the RO doesn't call it within x seconds or x feet. A DQ is for SAFETY. Safety is the one thing that keeps this sport legit and allowed all over the world and the country. 

 

If you've RO'd a lot, you know just how fast a DQ-able thing can happen, and it could easily take a few seconds for a hot/tired/surprised RO to make the call. 

 

Odd that your focus is on when the RO called the DQ. 

 

You let 4 unsafe things happen one ONE STAGE? 

 

What a mess. 

For clarification, I am not asking for a get out of DQ free card as you called it. I am asking for the official ruling if there is one on when the call has to be made so it does not become an issue in the future. I said supposedly because the call was made so late that I had no time to recognize what I did and am unaware I actually broke the 180 or if it was just really close. By "typical wrist flick" I am referring to sideways motion one typically makes with their wrist when inserting a new magazine. I agree that safety is the number one concern and is more important than anybody's happieness or feelings. Yes, DQ's are called for safety, but this one wasn't. It wasnt until the COF was complete and I was holstered that the RO informed me that I broke the 180 and the stage wouldnt be scored. In fact, he never officially DQ'ed me, I DQ'ed myself because I know the rules and the importance behind them. Im not going to retype everything else I already said about changes that need to be made, but its something that will be addressed immediately.

[PoorMansOpen]

14 minutes ago, Robertwil18 said:

If facts presented are 100% accurate and without any bias, it sounds like a club as a whole in need of some mentorship.  

Agreed, and hopefully we can find that mentorship before someone is allowed to shoot after a safety violation and someone gets hurt or worse.

[NoSteel]

35 minutes ago, Robertwil18 said:

If facts presented are 100% accurate and without any bias, it sounds like a club as a whole in need of some mentorship.  

Agreed…. Wow,  things are outa hand at that club.  I think this is a bad example on what can happen when the rules get lax.  Looks like it’s time to determine if stage designs need some work,  RO’s need to buckle down, safety rule orientation for participants or other actions before someone is injured..

[JWBaldree]

First off, good job on owning up to your DQ and the short-comings of your club, and for wanting to make things better. As to your age, I really don't care how old, young, male, female, handi-capable, or super squad material one is. When you show up to participate in any action shooting venue, the standard is can you do so safely; not how good or cool you think you are. I also don't care how old, young, male, female, handi-capable, or super squad material one is when ROing either. The standard is can you apply the rules fairly and consistently. I do kind of question if you are on the current rule set, when you say you've read the handbook and know all the rules. USPSA hasn't distributed updated rule books for a few years (rules available on-line, no hand books), and I've been ROing for ten years or so and don't claim to know all the rules. As an example, NROI 'got' me with the March question of the month.

 

Think of the rules a little like Algebra. I can tell you A + B = B + A, and you can say "I read that, and I know it." But two or three assignments later you might miss the perfect opportunity to apply that maxim in a practical form in the appropriate step while attempting to solve a problem. When your teacher points it out, you respond with "Darn, thought I knew that." Experience tends to fix these issues and beat into us the practical application of things we have read and thought we knew. Enough zen.

 

You are right, your club needs one person to serve as official MD. It also needs another person to serve as the match Range Master. Both parties are the HMFIC for their respected areas of responsibility. The purpose of the RM is to be the head RO, as it were, at locals that people can come to when they disagree  with a DQ call. This gives everybody a chance to reflect on a call, apply the correct rule to the call, and make sure things get done correctly and hopefully without question. A good RM also walks stages before a match, hopefully with a trusted ally, and looks for potential safety or design problems. Think trip hazards, 180 traps and shoot throughs. Choose this person wisely.

 

The MD's job is purely organizing the match, collecting money, assigning stage building jobs, supervising tear down, and getting results posted. That's a huge job for one person, and successful clubs have a MD that knows how to delegate and lots of helpful club members that are willing to put on a match. Note that a MD can also serve as RM. Either way, the buck has to fully stop with the MD and the RM, and the flavor and flow of the match will ultimately be dictated by those two. 

 

One final note. Spend some time on the NROI website. Watch their videos, and read the blogs and questions of the month. In two or three hours you can up your rules knowledge and RO skills exponentially. Maybe catch a podcast or two if you have the time. When you RO at your club, do so assertively and with confidence. When you find out that you made a mistake with a call, say "My Bad", apologize and learn from it. I'll take a ten year old that does this any day over a seventy year old that says "thats the way we've always done it and we all just want to have fun." The latter run the clubs that can be inherently unsafe and wonder why they don't attract new shooters, or wonder why some of their regulars have migrated to other clubs or hobbies.

[waktasz]

Is anyone at your club a certified RO?
I know it happens but I don't think a match director should be someone not certified. 
I tell people to take the RO and CRO course even if they don't think they want to work matches because it's important to know the rules of the sport you compete in, as a competitor. As an MD it's even more important. 
 

If one of the 5 MDs at your club is certified but doesn't want the responsibility of being full time MD, can he be the RM and you be the MD?
MD is responsible for putting the match on the ground, keeping it running, and organized, and the RM is responsible for enforcing the rules. 

 

 

[konkapot]

You're already at the point where people are being allowed to shoot after a safety violation.

 

Not a lawyer but this is Not a Good Situation and probably hasn't been for a long time. 

[PoorMansOpen]

1 hour ago, JWBaldree said:

First off, good job on owning up to your DQ and the short-comings of your club, and for wanting to make things better. As to your age, I really don't care how old, young, male, female, handi-capable, or super squad material one is. When you show up to participate in any action shooting venue, the standard is can you do so safely; not how good or cool you think you are. I also don't care how old, young, male, female, handi-capable, or super squad material one is when ROing either. The standard is can you apply the rules fairly and consistently. I do kind of question if you are on the current rule set, when you say you've read the handbook and know all the rules. USPSA hasn't distributed updated rule books for a few years (rules available on-line, no hand books), and I've been ROing for ten years or so and don't claim to know all the rules. As an example, NROI 'got' me with the March question of the month.

 

Think of the rules a little like Algebra. I can tell you A + B = B + A, and you can say "I read that, and I know it." But two or three assignments later you might miss the perfect opportunity to apply that maxim in a practical form in the appropriate step while attempting to solve a problem. When your teacher points it out, you respond with "Darn, thought I knew that." Experience tends to fix these issues and beat into us the practical application of things we have read and thought we knew. Enough zen.

 

You are right, your club needs one person to serve as official MD. It also needs another person to serve as the match Range Master. Both parties are the HMFIC for their respected areas of responsibility. The purpose of the RM is to be the head RO, as it were, at locals that people can come to when they disagree  with a DQ call. This gives everybody a chance to reflect on a call, apply the correct rule to the call, and make sure things get done correctly and hopefully without question. A good RM also walks stages before a match, hopefully with a trusted ally, and looks for potential safety or design problems. Think trip hazards, 180 traps and shoot throughs. Choose this person wisely.

 

The MD's job is purely organizing the match, collecting money, assigning stage building jobs, supervising tear down, and getting results posted. That's a huge job for one person, and successful clubs have a MD that knows how to delegate and lots of helpful club members that are willing to put on a match. Note that a MD can also serve as RM. Either way, the buck has to fully stop with the MD and the RM, and the flavor and flow of the match will ultimately be dictated by those two. 

 

One final note. Spend some time on the NROI website. Watch their videos, and read the blogs and questions of the month. In two or three hours you can up your rules knowledge and RO skills exponentially. Maybe catch a podcast or two if you have the time. When you RO at your club, do so assertively and with confidence. When you find out that you made a mistake with a call, say "My Bad", apologize and learn from it. I'll take a ten year old that does this any day over a seventy year old that says "thats the way we've always done it and we all just want to have fun." The latter run the clubs that can be inherently unsafe and wonder why they don't attract new shooters, or wonder why some of their regulars have migrated to other clubs or hobbies.

Thank you for all the advice, I really appreciate it. You are right that I don't know everthing, and the algebra thing is a good way of explaining that, so thanks. I will definitely keep studying, I can never learn too much. I definitely have a couple people I could ask to be RM, and I will be sure to check out the NROI website. Thanks again!

[PoorMansOpen]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

Is anyone at your club a certified RO?
I know it happens but I don't think a match director should be someone not certified. 
I tell people to take the RO and CRO course even if they don't think they want to work matches because it's important to know the rules of the sport you compete in, as a competitor. As an MD it's even more important. 
 

If one of the 5 MDs at your club is certified but doesn't want the responsibility of being full time MD, can he be the RM and you be the MD?
MD is responsible for putting the match on the ground, keeping it running, and organized, and the RM is responsible for enforcing the rules. 

 

 

We have a few certified RO's, and a few who havent renewed their certs, but honestly should. Also, I am planning on taking the next RO and/or CRO course that is less than a 4 hr drive away. There really arent any close to me. Thanks for the advice!

[PoorMansOpen]

53 minutes ago, konkapot said:

You're already at the point where people are being allowed to shoot after a safety violation.

 

Not a lawyer but this is Not a Good Situation and probably hasn't been for a long time. 

Accurate. Feathers are definitely going to get ruffled among the old timers. I vaguely remember a guy looking down his own barrel when he got a squib abt 8 years ago. (He hadn't been cleared or anything.) Oh and he didn't get DQ'ed for some ridiculous reason.

Edited March 20, 2022 by PoorMansOpen

[ima45dv8]

2 hours ago, PoorMansOpen said:

I am asking for the official ruling if there is one on when the call has to be made so it does not become an issue in the future.

There is no official ruling for how quickly an RO has to call Stop. However, good sense applies. 

The RO informing you a few seconds after the event is not unheard of. 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, PoorMansOpen said:

Also, I am planning on taking the next RO and/or CRO course that is less than a 4 hr drive away. 

this is the correct response to this situation.

[Umbrarian]

9 hours ago, JWBaldree said:

 got a little upset because that inconsistency didn't work out for you.

Option A: get DQ'ed as soon as it happens.

Option B: get DQ'ed as stage is over.

 

Either way he is DQ'ed, dont see how the "inconsistency" could have worked out for him. Seemed to me he was just asking if rules require it to be immediate so they run their match correctly.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Umbrarian

[mactiger]

11 hours ago, PoorMansOpen said:

Not sure if this is the right sub, but here goes anyways. 

At my local USPSA match (Level 1, nobody's winning anything, just here to have fun) that I have been running with my dad for about a year and a half (we do all the admin as well as a few of the stages) when I supposedly broke the 180 while reloading. I don't dispute the call, but it wasn't made until after I had completed the stage about 10rds later. I finished shooting and heard this from the RO: "If you are finished, unload and show clear. If clear, slide down, hammer down, and holster. Oh, also I should have called it when it happened, but you broke the 180 and are DQ'ed." (Paraphrasing). My question is, both for now and future reference, does the RO have to call the violation when it happens for it to be valid? I only ask that because multiple RO's at our range have made that claim before. Its really no big deal, just a little miffed because I could have DQ'ed at least four other shooters on that stage if I was RO'ing, one for a 180 (was clearly acknowledged by the other RO who was running him) and the other three for fingers on the rigger while moving or reloading. Plus one shooter (granted he was new) broke the 180 on the previous stage, the same RO acknowledged it and did nothing. We also had a shooter with an ND a few months back and the same RO who DQ'ed me made the decision to let them keep shooting. Y'all let me know, am I overreacting or is it a little bit of unfair descision making.

 

TL;DR RO didn't call a 180 violation until after the stage was completed, DQ'ed me anyways, yet let two others who clearly broke the 180 keep shooting. Same RO has let a shooter with a ND keep shooting. Question is, does the RO have to make the DQ call at the time of the violation?

As many have pointed out, there are so many things wrong with this statement it's hard to fathom.  Contact me at dnroi@uspsa.org and I will see about setting up a seminar at your facility or very close by.  We are actively trying to eliminate this club culture, "Level 1, ..." attitude, and your club seems like it could use some help, because you've got it bad.  

There is no requirement for the DQ to be called immediately, and the reasons for delay have been stated here.  

 

Troy

[ima45dv8]

Thanks, Mac. That's a nice offer.

[Part_time_redneck]

OP,

 

Like mentioned above, DQ's do not have to be called immediately, but they should be called. 

 

Each club has it's own culture, or flavor if you will. Stages tend to show a similarity from match to match, things are done the same way and routines are developed. These can be good or bad. I am very fortunate to live in a location with seven clubs within a two hour drive from my home. Even better is the fact that each of these clubs prioritizes  safety above all else. The rules, all of them are enforced strictly, but fairly among all competitors regardless if it's their first match or they're a seasoned GM. A match disqualification is a teachable moment. It is there to discipline an undesirable behavior. Without it the poor behavior will continue. 

 

When a DQ is not given or disregarded and the violator is allowed to continue, the culture of the match tends to tilt in that direction creating an unsafe condition for all involved. Even at a level I where someone may use the excuse " well, it's his first match ", this doesn't fly. It's simply reinforcing a bad behavior. If allowed to continue unchecked, it will only get worse. By not removing an offender from the match you are doing them a great disservice. If / when they go to their first level II with these habits and get a DQ that sticks, there will be no discussion or talking their way out of it, just a long ride home. This is probably the best case scenario. Worst case, well we won't go there. The safety rules are there to help avoid these situations. Non enforcement of these rules creates a very dangerous environment for all involved. It's as simple as that. 

 

Get with Troy, take the RO class, and put it to use. If you see something dangerous, you own it. Speak up. Be polite but speak up. Safety is everyone's responsibility. 

[PoorMansOpen]

23 hours ago, mactiger said:

Contact me at dnroi@uspsa.org and I will see about setting up a seminar at your facility or very close by. 

Will do, I really appreciate that.

[davsco]

On 3/20/2022 at 1:32 PM, PoorMansOpen said:

(was clearly acknowledged by the other RO who was running him)

both the timer RO and the scorekeeper RO have the right and the obligation to call DQs.

 

def take Troy up on his generous offer, but you need folks that can and will enforce all of the rules, esp the safety ones.

 

maybe if you say where your club is, some folks on here that are relatively nearby would come and help out restore order at your next match.

 

[ltdmstr]

On 3/20/2022 at 2:19 PM, PoorMansOpen said:

Guilty as charged lol.

What I forgot to mention in my OP is that I am 16, so even though I have read the entire handbook and know the all the rules, the certified RO's and old timers don't really listen to me. Most of the times, including the ND I mentioned, I have strongly urged to DQ as it is obviously a huge safety issue. (The respose is usually something like "We are all here to have fun, nobody got hurt and nobody us winning prizes so it doesn't matter.) I think our biggest issue rn is that instead of one MD, we have 5, all of whom dont always agree. Perhaps the best possible course of action would be to either hand the "authority" over to my dad who more people will listen to and keep him up to date on all the rules, procedures, etc. or realize that I might have to push some buttons and ruffle some feathers if people want to be lenient on rules. I agree that I have to be catious on not making it seem personal. As far as RO's, we have about 5 or 6 certified RO's that are at our matches, plus a few (including myself) that are uncertified.

 

Not to nitpick, but please don't use the ND terms unless you know there was negligence involved.  It's not the same as an AD the terms aren't interchangeable.  Thanks,