2022 Rulebook Released

[matteekay]

7 minutes ago, MarilynMonbro said:

They removed a lot of the rules regarding speed loaders and moon clip carriers that were in the 2017 rulebook.    It just needs to be concealed now 

 

Yup, caught that. No more "covers at least X% of the moon when viewed from the front" crap anymore.

[Racinready300ex]

4 hours ago, robertbank said:

What I cannot understand is how is it that the country that put a man on the moon births a wonderful sport administered by folks who are incapable of producing a well written rule book.   eg We are told told:

"A.1.3.3 Removable grips may be changed to another style or material that is similar to factory configuration and do not weigh more than 2.00 oz. more than the factory standard weight for that model. Grip modules are not considered removable grips for this division."

 

Further down we are told:

"A.1.3.6 Frames may be replaced with identical frames from the same manufacturer."

When does a grip module for the Sig 320 become part of or become the frame or does it ever?  I ask because I recently installed a Wilson Combat grip module on my Sig 320 Xfive. Does that put me in ESP?

The magazine or Ammunition Carriers " 8.6.2.3 Magazine carriers must be worn in a location on the belt so that the magazine is completely concealed..  No mention in this section as to how moon clip or speed loaders are to be placed other than than all equipment must be concealed per  8.7.1.  

 

If I have missed anything or there are sections which address my points raised please let me know.  I do hope my initial observation regarding writing a rule book is wrong but given the history of IDPA rule writing since 2005.....

 

I suspect there is more of this.

 

Take Care

 

Bob

 

2 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Please do. I want to elevate as many of these issues as possible so the AC's can talk to HQ and hopefully clarify things.

 

 

My AC is looking into it. 

[njl]

12 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Think that one out. 6-9 targets, and 3 tenths per. That's 1.8-2.7 seconds per stage that you're giving to someone who can shoot quickly and accurately. A good run in IDPA is going to be -0 to -1 with the only make up shots being ones you planned for round dumping purposes. 

 

Now as you move down in the standings you'll probably find this strategy will work. But at some point along the way it'll be holding you back.

 

Well, I'm already not terribly fast, but tend to do really well in the points down department, so this could help me be even not faster with even fewer points down.  That's a win win, no? 

[robertbank]

Why was the  mag capacity for SSP raised to 15 rounds?  Was it to make a political statement?  California, Mass., NY Washington and the Great White NOrth all have 10 rd limitations on pistol mags.   What is the gain?  You reduce the number of reloads SSP shooters will have to do for stages 16 rds or less.  Gain?  Part of the skills we learn under the stress of the timer is reloading.  Does it reflect the average real life shoot outs of3 rds or less or whatwver the US present rates of fire are...probably not but hell this is a sport first and foremost is it not?  In my travels across Canada and have talked to any number of shooters across the US I cannot remember one conversation where any shooter said, "Gee IDPA would be so much better if we could only use 15 rd mag capacity for SSP.  Not one!   Yet here we are.

 

Maybe someone can explain where the gain was.  I can't believe American shooters found it any more difficult counting to 10  than it will be to count to 15 even taking into account five more digits.  :>).   Up here life is easier we don't have to know how to count to 10 the Gov't mandates 10 round limitations so we just load until we can't push another round into the mag.  Then some weak and somewhat slow individual gets nailed because he starts with nine rounds.  LOL......don't ask!

 

Take Care

 

Bob

Edited March 23, 2022 by robertbank

[RangerTrace]

I can live with 10 rounds capacity in ESP/CO, but if SSP can have 15 and PCC can have 30, then I don't understand why you don't just give everybody 15.  Regardless, if they would let us drop mags with bullets in them, I'd be happier!!

[Racinready300ex]

Per my AC Wilson grip modules should be good in SSP. Assuming he understood my question correctly. He had to check on it because he wasn't sure and got back to me this morning. 

[robertbank]

7 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I can live with 10 rounds capacity in ESP/CO, but if SSP can have 15 and PCC can have 30, then I don't understand why you don't just give everybody 15.  Regardless, if they would let us drop mags with bullets in them, I'd be happier!!

You have that sport and actually play it.  In the US it is called USPSA and every where else IPSC. 

 

You should add Cover Garments to your list....  Why bother with mag limits at all?  Get rid of the plastic box and call it good.  Even better eliminate those silly Divisions as well.  While all this is going on get rid of the walls and fault lines on stages, set the shooting distance to be 25 meters and set time limits to engage targets.  We could call the sport "Free Pistol".  I am betting most would gravitate to the .22 Short to absolutely remove recoil.  There fixed IDPA.  Make Athens the HQ and call it the Olympic Free Pistol.....

 

Take Care

 

Bob 

[matteekay]

2 hours ago, robertbank said:

You have that sport and actually play it.  In the US it is called USPSA and every where else IPSC. 

 

You should add Cover Garments to your list....  Why bother with mag limits at all?  Get rid of the plastic box and call it good.  Even better eliminate those silly Divisions as well.  While all this is going on get rid of the walls and fault lines on stages, set the shooting distance to be 25 meters and set time limits to engage targets.  We could call the sport "Free Pistol".  I am betting most would gravitate to the .22 Short to absolutely remove recoil.  There fixed IDPA.  Make Athens the HQ and call it the Olympic Free Pistol.....

 

Take Care

 

Bob 

 

That seems pretty harsh. I understand where the Ranger is coming from – I have zero issues with SSP going to 15, but it's not the most logical change when the "race" divisions stayed at 10. It's a little more confusing when the max round count is still 18 and I don't recall hearing SSP shooters (specifically) clamoring for more ammo.

 

I'll admit to being equally confused about CCP going to 10. The capacity difference used to be one of only two things to differentiate it from ESP (the other being size/weight). Now, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just bump up to ESP (and leave everyone running a commander sized 1911 out in the cold). The only logic I can apply is maybe there were enough guns that were 10+ rounds in ESP but were better-suited to CCP in terms of size? My MR920L (longslide Glock 19 clone) actually fits in the CCP box.

Edited March 23, 2022 by matteekay

[Racinready300ex]

I agree, the capacity changes seem silly. It seems like the should of probably left it alone. 10 round capacity in 18 round stages is reasonable. I have heard CO shooters mostly complain about wanting more ammo. 

 

With CCP going to 10 why not bump bug to 8. Bug could be a fun division but 6 rounds in the gun just sucks the life right out of it. 

 

I'm probably going to just use the same gun in CCP and ESP now, they're basically the same division anyway. I might even pick up a spare slide so I can shoot CCP, ESP and CO with the same gun. 

[Zincwarrior]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I'm probably going to just use the same gun in CCP and ESP now, they're basically the same division anyway. I might even pick up a spare slide so I can shoot CCP, ESP and CO with the same gun. 

How are they the same division? ESP permits a heavier, full size pistol with magwell and exterior trigger work yes? 

[Racinready300ex]

12 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

How are they the same division? ESP permits a heavier, full size pistol with magwell and exterior trigger work yes? 

 

The rules are the same other than weight and size. You don't have to run the absolute max the divisions will allow even though it sounds crazy to leave something on the table. 

 

So I will run a slightly smaller lighter gun in ESP so even though my gun might be slightly better suited for CCP. I'll decide what division I'm going to shoot based on the competition signed up for the match. 

 

[njl]

My opinion may change after shooting a few matches under the new rules, but I agree with the previous post that part of IDPA is honing skills like reloading.  If I were in charge, I think I would have set all the pistol divisions at 10 rounds per mag.  Lots of BUG sized guns can do 10...so why keep it at 6?  If someone wants to shoot their old slim pocket 9 with lower capacity, let them, but people shooting Glock 26 or any of the newer high capacity pocket 9s can fill them up to 10.

 

[SSGGlock]

On 3/23/2022 at 4:31 PM, njl said:

My opinion may change after shooting a few matches under the new rules, but I agree with the previous post that part of IDPA is honing skills like reloading.  If I were in charge, I think I would have set all the pistol divisions at 10 rounds per mag.  Lots of BUG sized guns can do 10...so why keep it at 6?  If someone wants to shoot their old slim pocket 9 with lower capacity, let them, but people shooting Glock 26 or any of the newer high capacity pocket 9s can fill them up to 10.

 

Yeap, just like they should have opened revolver to 8 rounds.

[matteekay]

24 minutes ago, SSGGlock said:

Yeap, just like they should have opened revolver to 8 rounds.

 

Or at the very least ditched ESR/SSR and let everyone run moons. And I say that as someone with nothing buy major caliber six-shot guns.

 

Eight would have been nice, though. And/or let us put a dot on top and run with the semi-autos in CO.

[Racinready300ex]

8 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Or at the very least ditched ESR/SSR and let everyone run moons. And I say that as someone with nothing buy major caliber six-shot guns.

 

Eight would have been nice, though. And/or let us put a dot on top and run with the semi-autos in CO.

 

It would of been nice to allow 8's in ESP, SSP and CO. Probably would of been fun shooting and I don't see how it would really hurt anything. 

[Jim Watson]

It is hard to fathom some of this stuff.

It is largely academic to me, I will still be shooting largely ESP or Specialty .22, but I will give SSP 15 a trial just to see how much difference it makes.  In the first month to get on the bandwagon, then later to see how MDs and shooters adapt.

CCO 10 makes little difference to me, it is the same gun I shoot in SSP.  A M&P with thin baseplates will just fit That Box.

[Zincwarrior]

On 3/23/2022 at 3:31 PM, njl said:

My opinion may change after shooting a few matches under the new rules, but I agree with the previous post that part of IDPA is honing skills like reloading.  If I were in charge, I think I would have set all the pistol divisions at 10 rounds per mag.  Lots of BUG sized guns can do 10...so why keep it at 6?  If someone wants to shoot their old slim pocket 9 with lower capacity, let them, but people shooting Glock 26 or any of the newer high capacity pocket 9s can fill them up to 10.

 

Having shot SSP with the 15 round count difference, the only thing I really noticed was that loading my mags takes more effort.   Reloads were still required on all the stages. Round counting was still required, etc. Didn't really notice a difference. 

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, Zincwarrior said:

Having shot SSP with the 15 round count difference, the only thing I really noticed was that loading my mags takes more effort.   Reloads were still required on all the stages. Round counting was still required, etc. Didn't really notice a difference. 

 

I guess your club does alot of 18 round stages? Or downloaded starts? 

 

My club gets into kicks where 50% of the stages will be downloaded starts. It get's to the point you don't even load your mags after you finish shooting unless you know what the next stage is. 

 

I could see round dumping being more of a pain. on a 17-18 round stage if there are more than two shots at the last position (almost always) you'll need to round dump somewhere. 

 

I'm setting up a p365 to run in SSP under the new rules, my first match will be out state champion in May. Assuming I can get classified. Until then I'm just guessing. 

[Zincwarrior]

We had a standards stage, with the remainder 17 or 18 rounds.  I could see it being different with 15-16 round stages. 

 

The new fault line and app. carry were more of an issue. I became more comfortable SOing an App carry (but he took the holster out, not holstering "into" himself). 

[Jim Watson]

We will just have to wait and see.  In my area Club 1 will wait until they have to go 2022 in June, Clubs 2 and 3 are changing over in May.  April shoots I can get to will be all 2017.

 

I will be practicing the "Cooper Reload/Last Round Reload" immediately after the last shoot here in April.   

Edited March 29, 2022 by Jim Watson

[Thomas H]

18 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

The new fault line and app. carry were more of an issue.

 

New fault line?

 

Do you mean how fault lines no longer extend uprange to the stage boundary, or did something else change and I missed it?  If it was how far they extend, what was the issue you noticed?

[Jim Watson]

I don't know about HIS issue but I sometimes find it effective to post up on the prolongation of the fault line, but that means it is not really holding me behind cover. 

I hope the MDs will set up objects at the end of the 3 to 8 foot fixed fault lines to remind us not do that any more.  I also hope they do not use them to force hard leans that my joints won't accommodate.  

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Zincwarrior said:

We had a standards stage, with the remainder 17 or 18 rounds.  I could see it being different with 15-16 round stages. 

 

The new fault line and app. carry were more of an issue. I became more comfortable SOing an App carry (but he took the holster out, not holstering "into" himself). 

 

My club does a lot of 12-15 round stages. Just enough to force reloads. I think pre covid ammo shortages we were mostly running 18 round stages because more is better. It'll be interesting to see if that changes or not. We're starting new rules 4/1.

 

They've also banned AWIB already. The fault line thing might be weird. My club only uses 3' long faults. In some places it's going to be a little annoying unless they get something longer to use. Most of the time it wont matter, you'll just have less options. 

[matteekay]

How is everyone reading the fault line rule? I read it as the shooter is only in-cover when they're inside of the physical fault, but another MD thought they operated as they do now and it was just implementing a standard of fault line length.

[Zincwarrior]

2 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

New fault line?

 

Do you mean how fault lines no longer extend uprange to the stage boundary, or did something else change and I missed it?  If it was how far they extend, what was the issue you noticed?

Yes, how the fault lines no longer extend.  

 

Quote

How is everyone reading the fault line rule? I read it as the shooter is only in-cover when they're inside of the physical fault

Yes that is how we read it, that the fault line ended where the stick ended. It wasn't a big deal, it just closed off some options.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Zincwarrior