Steel Challenge - Jan 15, 2022 BOD Minutes - Zack Jones Presentation

[Darqusoull13]

10 hours ago, BentAero said:

I may he completely ignorant on this, but I just can't visualize a significant amount of people who are sitting at home saying "I'd shoot Steel Challenge if they'd just do away with the movement on Outer Limits."

 

I could get behind changing the single box penalty from 4 seconds to 3 seconds, but no way on eliminating the movement. That borders on Cancel Culture meets the Shooting Sports.

 

Meanwhile, more than 700 guns are registered for the WSSC later this month, and I dare say every one of those shooters will be moving on OL. 

Bingo!!!

People stay at home because they don't know or don't have a mentor. Focus effort on the big picture. 

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, BentAero said:

I may he completely ignorant on this, but I just can't visualize a significant amount of people who are sitting at home saying "I'd shoot Steel Challenge if they'd just do away with the movement on Outer Limits."

 

I could get behind changing the single box penalty from 4 seconds to 3 seconds, but no way on eliminating the movement. That borders on Cancel Culture meets the Shooting Sports.

 

Meanwhile, more than 700 guns are registered for the WSSC later this month, and I dare say every one of those shooters will be moving on OL. 

 

I only personally know 1 wheelchair-bound shooter. He has since become more focused on his business and less on shooting, but he was putting up competitive times on all the stages except OL.

 

Mrs Moto and I will be competing at WSSC, and I dare say that if the movement on OL were eliminated, it would have zero effect whatsoever on the overall results. The same people that win every other stage also win OL, and would win with or without movement.

[Hoops]

27 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Bingo!!!

People stay at home because they don't know or don't have a mentor. Focus effort on the big picture. 

 

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I only personally know 1 wheelchair-bound shooter. He has since become more focused on his business and less on shooting, but he was putting up competitive times on all the stages except OL.

 

Mrs Moto and I will be competing at WSSC, and I dare say that if the movement on OL were eliminated, it would have zero effect whatsoever on the overall results. The same people that win every other stage also win OL, and would win with or without movement.

Most of us know people with disabilities.  If you live in a military town; for example, San Antonio, unfortunately there are far too many.

 

If you go thru Practiscore match scores it is not uncommon to find SCSA matches that average only 28 to 30 shooters at their monthly matches, including those who shoot multi-guns.  So the actual people count is less and some are not SCSA members.  

 

Nationally, SCSA has about 7,000 members.  The WSSC represents about 10% but eliminating the multi guns, about 7% of the full membership.  There are some fantastic shooters there and I agree with Mr Moto, changing OL would have zero effect on the top shooters or the outcome of the match.  But OL is not the only topic.  Classifications, Peak Times and yes, stages are valid subjects for discussion.

 

As for focusing on the broader picture, I would suggest that with only 7,000 national members and many matches that average 28-30 guns, it might benefit SCSA.org to take a fresh and broader view on the sport and to take input from members.

 

Zack Jones now has a seat at the BOD table as the designated SCSA Coordinator.  This topic was started with the idea of offering Zack feedback on thoughts and ideas from SCSA members accross the US.  Hopefully we can continue to do so.

[AR_James]

2021 WSSC - RFRO Overall Results: 1st place (Kunkel) 56.98; 2nd place (Nagata) 59.42; 3rd place (Gibson) 59.75.

 

Outer Limits Results: Kunkel 9.80; Nagata 9.60; Gibson 11.93.

 

Difference between Gibson and Nagata on Outer Limits: 2.33 seconds

Difference between Gibson and Nagata in overall results: 0.33 seconds.

 

Tell me again how Outer Limits has zero effect whatsoever on the top shooters or the outcome/results of the match.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, AR_James said:

Tell me again how Outer Limits has zero effect whatsoever on the top shooters or the outcome/results of the match.

That's not what anyone said. What was said is that the *movement* on OL makes no difference in the results. 

 

I've squadded with kenny and nate both, and neither is losing any time in the movement, Nate obviously just had a crap stage with the optic, 2.5 seconds slower than his iron sights time (which was fastest overall). it happens. But it doesn't mean the movement is the difference. It means if you have a really crap stage on *any* stage, it could affect your placing. Duh.

[egd5]

All of this discussion of OL is not about changing the outcomes of the top, or even probably middle, class shooters. They will win regardless. It is about opening the sport up to more people and leveling the field for physically impaired (even slightly by age or bad knees).

[Nolan]

So, in the name of equality, I suggest we add a wheelchair stage:

All competitors MUST sit in a wheelchair while shooting and moving.  Target presentation is like Outer Limits.

 

Simple.

Nolan

[Hoops]

If possible, can we shift the conversatio to Peak Times and Classifications?  Within a couple of months SCSA BOD will be discussing Peak Times and whether or not any should be changed.

 

Peak Times.  I will start this off.  Based on reviewing the fastest divisions; rimfire, in 8 stage matches, 85% to 90% of shooters do not shoot below the current peak times.  That includes GM.  Based on this, I would not be in a favor in reduction of Peak Times.  Thoughts?

 

Classifications.  Right now a classification can be earned shooting only the 4 fastest stages.  Many Level 1 matches shoot 5 stages and never OL or SP due to physical restrictions of the range.  Since every SCSA stage is a classifier (as opposed to usually 1 in a USPSA match), the nibbling away at earned time can be very rapid if a shooter wants to shoot a SCSA match every week.  A person could earn A, M and GM with the fastest times on few stages and later shoot OL and/or SO which could drop a person back a class but with lifetime classfications, that would not effect class status.  I personnally would not want to do it this way because I don't think it represents the correct skill level.  Anyone have any thoughts on this methodology?

 

 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

Peak Times.  I will start this off.  Based on reviewing the fastest divisions; rimfire, in 8 stage matches, 85% to 90% of shooters do not shoot below the current peak times.  That includes GM.  Based on this, I would not be in a favor in reduction of Peak Times.  Thoughts?

 

Classifications.  Right now a classification can be earned shooting only the 4 fastest stages.  Many Level 1 matches shoot 5 stages and never OL or SP due to physical restrictions of the range.  Since every SCSA stage is a classifier (as opposed to usually 1 in a USPSA match), the nibbling away at earned time can be very rapid if a shooter wants to shoot a SCSA match every week.  A person could earn A, M and GM with the fastest times on few stages and later shoot OL and/or SO which could drop a person back a class but with lifetime classfications, that would not effect class status.  I personnally would not want to do it this way because I don't think it represents the correct skill level.  Anyone have any thoughts on this methodology?

 

 

My thoughts on this are that after making GM in 1 division, I no longer really care about the classification times. Yes, they have kinda pulled the rug out from under me a couple times in rfpo, but I have a good shot of making it this year if nothing changes.... but I don't care. I'm going to try to get faster regardless.

 

Mrs Moto pretty much isn't satisfied with anything less than a hundo tho, but she's looking at the times bridget and emily and K-nag are shooting more than at the peak times.

 

[Darqusoull13]

22 hours ago, Hoops said:

If possible, can we shift the conversatio to Peak Times and Classifications?  Within a couple of months SCSA BOD will be discussing Peak Times and whether or not any should be changed.

 

Peak Times.  I will start this off.  Based on reviewing the fastest divisions; rimfire, in 8 stage matches, 85% to 90% of shooters do not shoot below the current peak times.  That includes GM.  Based on this, I would not be in a favor in reduction of Peak Times.  Thoughts?

 

Classifications.  Right now a classification can be earned shooting only the 4 fastest stages.  Many Level 1 matches shoot 5 stages and never OL or SP due to physical restrictions of the range.  Since every SCSA stage is a classifier (as opposed to usually 1 in a USPSA match), the nibbling away at earned time can be very rapid if a shooter wants to shoot a SCSA match every week.  A person could earn A, M and GM with the fastest times on few stages and later shoot OL and/or SO which could drop a person back a class but with lifetime classfications, that would not effect class status.  I personnally would not want to do it this way because I don't think it represents the correct skill level.  Anyone have any thoughts on this methodology?

 

 

I'd like to shift the focus back to growing the sport and not wasting time on issues 95%+ of shooters wont think about. 

How do you get more people involved and retain them once they try the sport? 

[jrdoran]

59 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

I'd like to shift the focus back to growing the sport and not wasting time on issues 95%+ of shooters wont think about. 

How do you get more people involved and retain them once they try the sport? 

 

Then start your own thread on that topic.   Please don't hijack this one.  I think you can solicit many good ideas I'm sure on how to grow the sport.

 

Thread drift:   Screwed up threads just make it hard if you would like to go back and research a particular topic....
You search "exhaust system" and you get "I live  in Bum-f*#k Iowa" where do you live?

 

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, jrdoran said:

 

Then start your own thread on that topic.   Please don't hijack this one.  I think you can solicit many good ideas I'm sure on how to grow the sport.

 

Thread drift:   Screwed up threads just make it hard if you would like to go back and research a particular topic....
You search "exhaust system" and you get "I live  in Bum-f*#k Iowa" where do you live?

 

If the premise of the thread is focusing on providing suggestions for improving the overall sport, why focus on small, boring issues. It's not drift, it's pulling the argument out of the weeds to look at real questions instead of a bunch of long time shooters asking "Is a 3 s or a 2.95 s penalty appropriate for no movement in OL?" 

Why not make BIG changes now that there's someone passionate about the sport included in BOD meetings? 

[JM_]

On 4/10/2022 at 11:15 AM, Hoops said:

If possible, can we shift the conversatio to Peak Times and Classifications?  Within a couple of months SCSA BOD will be discussing Peak Times and whether or not any should be changed.

 

Peak Times.  I will start this off.  Based on reviewing the fastest divisions; rimfire, in 8 stage matches, 85% to 90% of shooters do not shoot below the current peak times.  That includes GM.  Based on this, I would not be in a favor in reduction of Peak Times.  Thoughts?

 

Classifications.  Right now a classification can be earned shooting only the 4 fastest stages.  Many Level 1 matches shoot 5 stages and never OL or SP due to physical restrictions of the range.  Since every SCSA stage is a classifier (as opposed to usually 1 in a USPSA match), the nibbling away at earned time can be very rapid if a shooter wants to shoot a SCSA match every week.  A person could earn A, M and GM with the fastest times on few stages and later shoot OL and/or SO which could drop a person back a class but with lifetime classfications, that would not effect class status.  I personnally would not want to do it this way because I don't think it represents the correct skill level.  Anyone have any thoughts on this methodology?

 

 

SCSA peak times are way overdue to be adjusted. The overall times of rimfire have changed drastically, to where GM isn't so special anymore. If we want SCSA to stay competitive we need lower peak times to start pushing people to improve times and to keep a true GM status. For Area 5, 23 of the 77 competitors are GM. 30% is insane, and that's compared to the 14 master level guns. Yes I understand its Area match so better competition.

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, JM_ said:

SCSA peak times are way overdue to be adjusted. The overall times of rimfire have changed drastically, to where GM isn't so special anymore. If we want SCSA to stay competitive we need lower peak times to start pushing people to improve times and to keep a true GM status. For Area 5, 23 of the 77 competitors are GM. 30% is insane, and that's compared to the 14 master level guns. Yes I understand its Area match so better competition.

we have a lot of folks around here that are 'GM's', but made GM years ago when the times were much lower. anyone shooting gm times with any consistency nowadays is going to do well at the average area match, but probably not well enough to win with the peak times.

 

Also the very nature of steel classification means that on average, people will almost always shoot worse than their official classification times, because (duh) the classification runs are the best ones they've ever shot. So there are plenty of GM's who hooked up 1 stage at a time, but a match they shoot 10+ seconds below the minimum gm score. I don't know if there's a good way to fix that, but I know I don't really care. I just pay attention to trying to improve my times and shoot consistently.

[BritinUSA]

In any sport a competitor's skills (when compared to others) will generally rise at the start, plateau at some point and then begin to decline. If the classification system does not recognize that reality then it should probably change.

 

If the peak times change, does it alter existing classifications or do they stay the same ?

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

 

If the peak times change, does it alter existing classifications or do they stay the same ?

your classification does not change when the peak times change. if you made gm 8 years ago when it was easy, you are still a gm.  i personally don’t care about this or other classification related issues. show up and shoot big matches, if you win, you bad. if not, go practice more.

[EarlKeese]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

your classification does not change when the peak times change. if you made gm 8 years ago when it was easy, you are still a gm.  i personally don’t care about this or other classification related issues. show up and shoot big matches, if you win, you bad. if not, go practice more.

      ^^^This^^^

[Hoops]

23 hours ago, JM_ said:

SCSA peak times are way overdue to be adjusted. The overall times of rimfire have changed drastically, to where GM isn't so special anymore. If we want SCSA to stay competitive we need lower peak times to start pushing people to improve times and to keep a true GM status. For Area 5, 23 of the 77 competitors are GM. 30% is insane, and that's compared to the 14 master level guns. Yes I understand its Area match so better competition.

The 2021 Area 5 mixture is comparable to what has signed up so far for the 2022 match.  The 2021 match was 7 stages....Outer Limits was not shot.  Peak Time for RFRO for the 7 stages was 57.  Out of the 24 GM's that shot RFRO, 3 (12.5%) were under Peak Time and 4 (16.6%) shot at their GM class.  4/20 A Class shot their classification and 4/16 M Class shot their classification.  The lowest time was 122.8% vs Peak Time and was approximately 22% faster than 4th position, but the middle of the field was reasonably tight.  

 

It is my opinion that lowering peak times just based on super fast times by roughly 5% of the gifted shooters is not a solution.  I could be wrong in my analysis.  I would welcome input based on statistical data that would support reducing Peak Times for 95% of the SCSA membership.  This will be reviewed by BOD after the 2022 WSSC match this month so now is a good time for thoughts on the subject.

 

 

[AzShooter]

As a previous wheelchair bound shooter I can tell you that the movement makes a big difference.

 

Shooting from the center box I was able to shoot a B classification on OL.  I've yet to get past a low C score having to move from the boxes.  I may be standing but I'm very slow at the movement, always thinking I may fall.  

 

My times are in the high 8s and low 10s.

 

There is another 85 year old gentleman that shoots the same squad as I do and his times are in the 8 - 10 second range having to move.

 

Just for your information.

[Hoops]

There is an interesting evolving contradiction between USPSA (sport) and SCSA.  Beginning in 2019 and continuing into 2022, based on feedback from USPSA shooters, USPSA HQ has added classifiers that includes movement.  The reasoning is the older "stand and shoot" classifiers do not represent the "practical shooting" (movement) that is the basis for the sport.  USPSA HQ has published several articles on this.

 

Perhaps USPSA HQ will apply the same reasoning to Outer Limits by removing movement to be consistent with the basis of the sport which is stand and shoot as fast as you can.   Speed and Accuracy is the hallmark (and the attraction) of SCSA and is not a practical shooting (movement) sport.

 

USPSA HQ essentially copied the USPSA Classification percentages over to SCSA, including needing only 4 classifiers (stages) to be classified.  But I think we would all agree, there is very little comparison in this area between the two sports.

 

The attraction to USPSA matches is the ever changing stage designs and not the match classifier stage (IMO).  SCSA is 100% classifiers.  Perhaps adding 2 new stages to SCSA would increase the attraction to SCSA and give more options to Match Directors for their weekly stage selections?  Increasing the Peak Time basis with two creative new stages may be a better solution than trying to figure out how equitably reduce Peak Times for the same 8 stages year after year?

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

 

The attraction to USPSA matches is the ever changing stage designs and not the match classifier stage (IMO).  SCSA is 100% classifiers.  Perhaps adding 2 new stages to SCSA would increase the attraction to SCSA and give more options to Match Directors for their weekly stage selections?  Increasing the Peak Time basis with two creative new stages may be a better solution than trying to figure out how equitably reduce Peak Times for the same 8 stages year after year?

 

 

I know for me, one of the things I originally liked about steel challenge when i started in 2011 was being able to shoot the same stages every 2 weeks and track my improvement. After a while however, that became boring and now is the main reason I only shoot steel to help prepare for major matches my wife wants to attend. I really like rimfire challenge because the stages are different every time.

 

Personally, I would love to see steel challenge start adding new stages, like 2-3 per year, and roll them out at worlds. I suspect that won't be a very popular suggestion tho, but that's why I have drifted away from steel.

[Sinister4]

Many people love the "exact same" idea for shooting sports,  trap, skeet, precision pistol, highpower , smallbore rifle ect  never change the course of fire.  I agree I also like the totally different stages however in sports that I shot top level scores at in the past it was also very nice to know exactly what and how you would shoot it all the time.  If anything in steel IMHO I would like to see a 25% or more smaller target, same people would win but it would solve the "peak" times issue (for a while lol)  

[motosapiens]

50 minutes ago, Sinister4 said:

Many people love the "exact same" idea for shooting sports,  trap, skeet, precision pistol, highpower , smallbore rifle ect  never change the course of fire.  

 Yep, like racing a nascar oval. That's why I ride 2 wheels on singletrack..... never the same thing.

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

I know for me, one of the things I originally liked about steel challenge when i started in 2011 was being able to shoot the same stages every 2 weeks and track my improvement. After a while however, that became boring and now is the main reason I only shoot steel to help prepare for major matches my wife wants to attend. I really like rimfire challenge because the stages are different every time.

 

Personally, I would love to see steel challenge start adding new stages, like 2-3 per year, and roll them out at worlds. I suspect that won't be a very popular suggestion tho, but that's why I have drifted away from steel.

Thank you !

 

I hear the same thing from many people.  A few years ago it was common to have 60 shooters at matches and registration fill up in a few hours.  Now many matches struggle to average 35 to 40 including 2 guns.

 

I hope more people will join this conversation.  And I hope Zack continues to follow this as well.

 

 

[zzt]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Personally, I would love to see steel challenge start adding new stages, like 2-3 per year, and roll them out at worlds. I suspect that won't be a very popular suggestion tho, but that's why I have drifted away from steel.

 

As long as the existing equipment can be used, there is no good reason not to do this.