45ACP U die ?

[Sarge]

Do I need a U die for loading 45? It’s all I use for 9MAJOR but not sure 45 poses the same challenges. Probably loading BBI’s

[ChuckS]

I loaded .45 for 17 years with Dillon dies. Never found a reason to change. It used to be very simple to load until they came up with GAP and small primer .45 though. 

[Farmer]

No, never have needed one in 43 years using RCBS and std Lee carbide dies. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Farmer
Sp

[GrumpyOne]

The U die is used for bulged brass or to undersize the brass? I don't think I've ever seen a piece of 45ACP brass that was bulged. All the 45 I've loaded has been loaded using Dillon dies (not a lot of 45 loaded though).

[AHI]

It has its place. Military brass(TZZ) that was fired in a full auto. Size it the first time only.

Then regular sizzling works after that.   

 

It was free.  55 gallon barrel. should have got two.

Edited November 23, 2021 by AHI

[PhotoRecon]

I've used RCBS and then Dillon 45 ACP sizer dies since the early 80s and never had a bulge problem with range pickup, which is all I use.

 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, PhotoRecon said:

I've used RCBS and then Dillon 45 ACP sizer dies since the early 80s and never had a bulge problem with range pickup, which is all I use.

 

Not concerned as much about bulging as I am about bullet setback

[ChuckS]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Not concerned as much about bulging as I am about bullet setback

I never had any issues with lead, coated, plated or jacketed. but then, I never loaded anything lighter than a 200 Gr SWC.

[twodownzero]

I use the U die in 9mm and 40 S&W but I have never tried it in .45 nor ever seen the need.  45 ACP is literally the first cartridge I ever loaded and I'm still using the same Dillon dies for it that I started with 15+ years ago.

Edited November 23, 2021 by twodownzero

[Farmer]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

Not concerned as much about bulging as I am about bullet setback

Have never seen it in properly loaded rounds and not an issue with that large cap case. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Farmer

[zzt]

23 hours ago, Sarge said:

Not concerned as much about bulging as I am about bullet setback

 

I would not worry about it.  If properly crimped you will get no set back unless the case is split.  You do find some bulged cases in range pickup.  I use the Lee FCD for the crimp.  It solves that problem 100%.  If you use lead or coated bullets, the portion of the bullet inside the case will be swaged down to .450"  That has zero effect on accuracy with any of the bullets I use.  I even use it for my bullseye loads.

[twodownzero]

9 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

I would not worry about it.  If properly crimped you will get no set back unless the case is split.  You do find some bulged cases in range pickup.  I use the Lee FCD for the crimp.  It solves that problem 100%.  If you use lead or coated bullets, the portion of the bullet inside the case will be swaged down to .450"  That has zero effect on accuracy with any of the bullets I use.  I even use it for my bullseye loads.

 

I would strongly recommend against using the FCD with any pistol cartridge.  Also, I am very skeptical of your claim that "crimp" has anything to do with bullet setback in a straight wall pistol cartridge.  Certainly in a revolver cartridge where a roll crimp is used, the crimp has a substantial effect on preventing the bullet from moving.  An auto pistol cartridge headspaces off of the rim and so "crimp" is really a misnomer, a taper crimp die really just knocks the bell down that came from the expansion stage.

 

Bullets in .45 ACP should be retained with neck tension.

 

The FCD is famous for undersizing lead bullets, which can result in leading and other issues (bullets tumbling).  I do not want any part of my .452 (or bigger) bullets sized down to .450.  With a 200 grain .45, sizing "the portion inside the case" would be basically destroying the bearing area of the bullet.  If I'm going to do that, I might as well buy a smoothbore barrel while I'm at it.

[Jim Watson]

On 11/23/2021 at 9:24 AM, Sarge said:

Not concerned as much about bulging as I am about bullet setback

 

Me, too.  I was plagued by setback of 200 gr plated, soft and slick.  

I went back and cannelured the cases of loaded ammo and are now sizing with a "U" die.  

 

Coated bullets have not shown setback with standard sizing die; they are normally a thou larger and not as slippery.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, twodownzero said:

 

I would strongly recommend against using the FCD with any pistol cartridge.  Also, I am very skeptical of your claim that "crimp" has anything to do with bullet setback in a straight wall pistol cartridge.  Certainly in a revolver cartridge where a roll crimp is used, the crimp has a substantial effect on preventing the bullet from moving.  An auto pistol cartridge headspaces off of the rim and so "crimp" is really a misnomer, a taper crimp die really just knocks the bell down that came from the expansion stage.

 

Bullets in .45 ACP should be retained with neck tension.

 

The FCD is famous for undersizing lead bullets, which can result in leading and other issues (bullets tumbling).  I do not want any part of my .452 (or bigger) bullets sized down to .450.  With a 200 grain .45, sizing "the portion inside the case" would be basically destroying the bearing area of the bullet.  If I'm going to do that, I might as well buy a smoothbore barrel while I'm at it.

I only use FCD for ease of adjustment and light crimp. I keep it backed out far enough that it doesn’t do much if any sizing.

[Sarge]

21 hours ago, Farmer said:

Have never seen it in properly loaded rounds and not an issue with that large cap case. 

I assume you speak only of 45? Because setback is a very real problem with many bullet/case combinations in 9mm

[lgh]

Used Dillon dies for 20 yrs. Never a problem with setback or anything else. Unlike 9mm, I found I could use mixed headstamps for 45 and it didn't matter.

[zzt]

@twodownzero, that is just rubbish.  First off, a taper crimp die does crimp when set correctly.  In soft lead you can see a mark.  Same with plated.  If you are seating and crimping in different stations, the seating die removed the 'bell' if there was one.  With a two-step expander you do not need any bell at all.

 

The Lee FCD WILL swage any part of the bullet inside the case to .450"  They tell you as much.  Your statement that it causes leading and tumbling is just not accurate.  I've used it on tens of thousands of lead bullets from 152gr to 200gr.  All of them were .451".  None leaded.  None tumbled.  That was in three different 1911 45s.  So I think you just bought into an old wives tale.

 

@Sarge

I reload vast quantities of 9mm and have no issues with set back.  I use Hornady dies and the Lee FCD.  I use range pickup for minor and sub-minor using .356 coated, .355 and .356 plated and .355 JHP for major and minor compensated.  I'm super duper extra careful with major.  I only use once fired, fully processed, same head stamp brass for major and I leave it on the ground.  The only time I'll pick it up is after practice.  The club asks you to police your brass.  Then I use it for Comp'd minor for SCSA.

[Farmer]

8 hours ago, Sarge said:

I assume you speak only of 45? Because setback is a very real problem with many bullet/case combinations in 9mm

Yes, less or no problem with the 45 but haven’t run into much issue with 9mm either, yet. Even if a 45 does set back it really doesn’t make as much difference as with the smaller cases. Unless your running full gonzo max I don’t worry about or even think about it. Thus back to my previous statement elsewhere on the forums that the 9mm is a PITA to load compared to the 45 auto. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Farmer

[Farmer]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

@twodownzero, that is just rubbish.  First off, a taper crimp die does crimp when set correctly.  In soft lead you can see a mark.  Same with plated.  If you are seating and crimping in different stations, the seating die removed the 'bell' if there was one.  With a two-step expander you do not need any bell at all.

 

The Lee FCD WILL swage any part of the bullet inside the case to .450"  They tell you as much.  Your statement that it causes leading and tumbling is just not accurate.  I've used it on tens of thousands of lead bullets from 152gr to 200gr.  All of them were .451".  None leaded.  None tumbled.  That was in three different 1911 45s.  So I think you just bought into an old wives tale.

 

@Sarge

I reload vast quantities of 9mm and have no issues with set back.  I use Hornady dies and the Lee FCD.  I use range pickup for minor and sub-minor using .356 coated, .355 and .356 plated and .355 JHP for major and minor compensated.  I'm super duper extra careful with major.  I only use once fired, fully processed, same head stamp brass for major and I leave it on the ground.  The only time I'll pick it up is after practice.  The club asks you to police your brass.  Then I use it for Comp'd minor for SCSA.

The Lee FCD can cause leading if all conditions are right but never heard of tumbling. Soft non coated bullets in a thick case shot out of an oversized bore. I pulled some after FCD and they measured .449-.450 But you could really feel the resistance as they went through the first part of the die. That’s the first indication that there’s a problem and you should quit using it on those loads. The Redding Profile Crimp Die will do the same thing to lead bullets. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Farmer

[zzt]

2 minutes ago, Farmer said:

The Lee FCD can cause leading if all conditions are right but never heard of tumbling. Soft non coated bullets in a thick case shot out of an oversized bore. I pulled some after FCD and they measured .449-.450 But you could really feel the resistance as they went through the first part of the die. That’s the first indication that there’s a problem and you should quit using it on those loads. The Redding Profile Crimp Die will do the same thing to lead bullets. 

 

Maybe, but I never had a problem with .450 and .451 bullets.  BTW, mine swages everything to .450 in the case, if it was not already.  It is the oversized bore that contributed to leading, not the FCD.

 

I'm going to go a bit off topic here and talk about bullet sizing, specifically about 45s.  Matt Dardas made, IMO, the best lubed lead 200gr SWC ever.  He is retired now, and I'm down to my last 2000.  He was a great pistol shooter and tester.  He told anyone who would listen they should slug their barrel and see what was what.  He even sold pure lead balls to do that with, and offered to mike them accurately if you could not.  He said there was no correct rule for diameter as it pertains to accuracy.    He said some .450 bores were most accurate with .450 lubed lead bullets.  He said most were more accurate with .451.  If you needed .452 and your bore was .450, something was amiss.  I tried both and had equal accuracy with .450 and .451.  

 

If you have an oversized bore in 9mm you are SOOL.  In 45 there is NO excuse.  Send it back or buy a new one.  Actually, same with 9mm or 40sw.  There is ZERO point in shooting expensive bullets through a crappy barrel.  You would be better off using a sling shot.

[Farmer]

7 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Maybe, but I never had a problem with .450 and .451 bullets.  BTW, mine swages everything to .450 in the case, if it was not already.  It is the oversized bore that contributed to leading, not the FCD.

 

I'm going to go a bit off topic here and talk about bullet sizing, specifically about 45s.  Matt Dardas made, IMO, the best lubed lead 200gr SWC ever.  He is retired now, and I'm down to my last 2000.  He was a great pistol shooter and tester.  He told anyone who would listen they should slug their barrel and see what was what.  He even sold pure lead balls to do that with, and offered to mike them accurately if you could not.  He said there was no correct rule for diameter as it pertains to accuracy.    He said some .450 bores were most accurate with .450 lubed lead bullets.  He said most were more accurate with .451.  If you needed .452 and your bore was .450, something was amiss.  I tried both and had equal accuracy with .450 and .451.  

 

If you have an oversized bore in 9mm you are SOOL.  In 45 there is NO excuse.  Send it back or buy a new one.

Of the several 45 bores I’ve slugged and measured most ran .4505-.4515 and one was a whopping .454. What I was saying is if you have one of those .4515 bbls and are shooting .450 sized bullets your more than likely not going to not have the best performance. Fit is everything and if you start with a properly sized bullet for your bore let’s say .4515 for your .451 bore. You run it through the FCD and it sizes it down to .450, now your bullet is undersized for your SAAMI spec .451 barrel. Also when you slug a bbl your only getting the smallest portion of that bbl. I have slugged them where once the slug is started, it literally almost fell to the muzzle end of the bore. Once measured it was a “tight bore” but only on the ends! Remarkably they can shoot pretty good. I think the coated bullets have really helped with fitment problems on a lot of guns. They seem to be more tolerant of imperfections. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Farmer
Added

[zzt]

Correction:  the Lee FCD swages the portion of a 45 bullet inside the case to .451, not the .450 I previously reported.

[Yeti]

On 11/22/2021 at 11:32 PM, Sarge said:

Do I need a U die for loading 45? It’s all I use for 9MAJOR but not sure 45 poses the same challenges. Probably loading BBI’s

Never needed a U-Die for any 45 loads. 

The 45 barrels I encountered (1911/2011 manufacturers + KKM, Nowlin, Kart, Brown, etc.) have been more consistent in chamber and bore sizing than say 9mm.    

 

I've only used U-Dies for jacketed bullets in 9mm and 40, not coated which are slightly oversize. 

 

Really no issues with the FCD dies except for rare oddball 9mm barrel that required quite oversized lubed lead/coated bullets to be accurate. 

Just check your bullet with the FCD before you go all full production mode.

 

[Jim Watson]

15 hours ago, Farmer said:

Even if a 45 does set back it really doesn’t make as much difference as with the smaller cases.

 

If it causes a failure to feed in an already finicky gun like mine, it has made 100% difference.  (I am getting the gun worked on, it is beyond my help tinkering with loads and magazines.)

 

15 hours ago, Farmer said:

That’s the first indication that there’s a problem and you should quit using it on those loads.

 

So what do you do if you are stuck with some of "those loads?"  In the worse cases they have to be ironed out to chamber.

[Farmer]

3 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

 

If it causes a failure to feed in an already finicky gun like mine, it has made 100% difference.  (I am getting the gun worked on, it is beyond my help tinkering with loads and magazines.)

So what do you do if you are stuck with some of "those loads?"  In the worse cases they have to be ironed out to chamber.

If I had a gun that finicky I’d sell it. 
With the setback on a 45 I was referring to psi increase not feeding problems. Sorry about that. 
 

I just check to see if they chamber with a regular taper crimp. If they don’t then test for accuracy after the FCD and go from there. Can always use them for practice. If it’s a problem either way then switch components. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Farmer
Added