New gun rules.

[Scooter]

IDPA just posted this on Facebook.

 

From RACL Rick Lund: This is a reminder for many of you, and news to the remainder of everyone who sends in questions to HQ and their AC's about whether their gun is legal for IDPA. Figuring this out for you is not really the job of headquarters since the specifications of the divisions are detailed in the rulebook. 

There is one exception to this: Enhanced Service Pistol (ESP). 

What happened is in early 2017, after our new rulebook went into effect, manufacturers began turning out new guns and components that over time, have become stock items on service guns and questions started pouring in. Examples of these are lightened slides, heavier barrels, and weighted grips.  

Recognizing that technology and new manufacturing improvements are showing us new products and firearms every year that enhance off-the-shelf inventories for specific uses such as concealed carry. And because we accept these new guns into our sport where appropriate as Stock Service Pistols, it would only be a matter of time that the help desk would be receiving calls about mix and match guns for our other divisions. 

We also said to ourselves that we were not going to issue a new rulebook or addendums every time something new hit the market and the IDPA equipment check at matches. 

So we came up with a short-term solution until such time that the BOD and HQ decide to conduct a review of the rules for our sport. 
We announced that the test criteria for Enhanced Service Pistol would be: EDC-Fit the Box-Make Weight. The gun must still comply with 8.1.7.D addressing magazine releases. This policy supersedes the inspection criteria detailed in the rulebook for ESP. This way it is easier for everyone that wants to use any firearm that might otherwise be excluded using our rules. 

Stock Service Pistol means Stock. If there are any visible differences from an SKU on the manufacturers' website, the gun will not be allowed to compete in this division. 

The same principle applies to Custom Defensive Pistol. If you find a .45 that has a heavy barrel without a bushing or lightened slides that you want to compete with, enter the gun into ESP. 

Back-Up Gun (BUG), Compact Carry Pistol and Carry Optics have the same allowances as ESP with different size and weight restrictions. These are all published on our website, in our current rules and appendices. 

If you are really stuck, your AC or IPOC have the ability to get you a correct answer. 

See you on the range.
Rick

[Peterock]

So does this mean I can use a Brass backstrap and Tungsten guide rod now?

[Scooter]

That's what it seems like. 

 

I'm more confused with the SSP rules. Does the allowable modifications still in place or does it have to look exactly like the SKU gun?

[Stuey]

The way I read it, you cannot make any external modifications to your gun to compete in SSP.  This would mean sights also.  They are not the stock/sku sights, your gun goes into ESP.  This is the same for anyone who changed the Hammer on the CZ-Shadow and not using the stock one.

 

Your gun must still look like the SKU gun on the outside.

[RileyBowman]

55 minutes ago, Stuey said:

The way I read it, you cannot make any external modifications to your gun to compete in SSP.  This would mean sights also.  They are not the stock/sku sights, your gun goes into ESP.  This is the same for anyone who changed the Hammer on the CZ-Shadow and not using the stock one.

 

Your gun must still look like the SKU gun on the outside.

That’s a bit extreme IMO. I think iron sights should always be a permitted modification, and it’s easy to limit it to criteria such as “must be of the post and notch type.”

 

I’m trying to understand…is this clarification superseding the rule book including permitted modifications such as those found under 8.2.1.2?

[matteekay]

3 hours ago, RileyBowman said:

That’s a bit extreme IMO. I think iron sights should always be a permitted modification, and it’s easy to limit it to criteria such as “must be of the post and notch type.”

 

I’m trying to understand…is this clarification superseding the rule book including permitted modifications such as those found under 8.2.1.2?

 

That's my take. This has been an unofficial policy amongst the AC's for months - I think they finally got tired of people asking about it. I know one of the big points of contention was the disallowing of "cone/heavy barrels", particularly when the X-Five was considered legal... 

 

I'm guessing this new policy doesn't overrule 8.1.8 and that's where all the fun stuff lives. So, still no lights, weights, etc...

[IHAVEGAS]

15 hours ago, Scooter said:

We also said to ourselves that we were not going to issue a new rulebook or addendums every time something new hit the market and the IDPA equipment check at matches. 

 

Sometimes choosing the easy way for a few instead of the best way for the many is the hardest way for all.

How long does it take to write an addendum?

Agree with avoiding the new book expense. 

[ddc]

12 hours ago, Scooter said:

I'm more confused with the SSP rules. Does the allowable modifications still in place or does it have to look exactly like the SKU gun?

 

I agree. They have clarified ESP. But that sentence about "If there are any visible differences from an SKU..." would seem to eliminate much of 8.2.1.2 as many of those modifications result in visible differences.

 

I'm guessing this was not their intent. If so perhaps there will be a clarification of the clarification.... lol

[Stuey]

7 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

I agree. They have clarified ESP. But that sentence about "If there are any visible differences from an SKU..." would seem to eliminate much of 8.2.1.2 as many of those modifications result in visible differences.

 

I'm guessing this was not their intent. If so perhaps there will be a clarification of the clarification.... lol

I am guessing this was their intent to eliminate most of 8.2.1.2. I read it as they are looking at keeping guns in SSP as they where sold.  No external modifications are going to be allowed because it takes away from how it sold originally from the gun maker.  

[Michael303]

8 hours ago, matteekay said:

I'm guessing this new policy doesn't overrule 8.1.8 and that's where all the fun stuff lives. So, still no lights, weights, etc...

There's the rub. Heavy barrels fall under 8.1.8 and they're good-to-go but flashlights and comps do too and they're still forbidden fruit. Flashlights are arguably more EDC than heavy barrels.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Michael303

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, Michael303 said:

There's the rub. Heavy barrels fall under 8.1.8 and they're good to go but flashlights and comps do to and they're still forbidden fruit. Flashlights are arguably more EDC than heavy barrels.

 

The problem with flashlights is they can give you a huge competitive advantage at some matches. Allowing them in IDPA would be the same as requiring them in IDPA. A lot of majors in this area will have 2 dark stages on their indoor range. If you shoot with a hand held light the odds of you winning that match against a WML are slim. If they allowed WML's and I were still serious about IDPA I'd drop my current gun in a heart beat to buy one that will make weight with a light on it. 

 

So I can see why HQ may not want to force WML's on everyone.

[ddc]

30 minutes ago, Stuey said:

I am guessing this was their intent to eliminate most of 8.2.1.2. I read it as they are looking at keeping guns in SSP as they where sold.  No external modifications are going to be allowed because it takes away from how it sold originally from the gun maker.  

 

That could be. However the way it reads to my mind does not make that obvious. The way it was written seems to focus initially completely on ESP, with some clarity, and then there is this "oh, and as far as SSP is concerned..." afterthought that raises additional questions.

 

I wonder if anybody at IDPA HQ ever proofreads these releases.

[matteekay]

29 minutes ago, Michael303 said:

There's the rub. Heavy barrels fall under 8.1.8 and they're good-to-go but flashlights and comps do too and they're still forbidden fruit. Flashlights are arguably more EDC than heavy barrels.

 

Bull barrels have specific language under 8.1.8 that says:

 

Heavy and/or cone style barrels without a barrel bushing except as allowed in ESP, CCP, BUG and CDP divisions with length restrictions.

 

Lights and comps don't. I take that as them removing the length restriction from the ESP appendix and not blowing away 8.1.8 entirely.

 

Now, sight blocks....

 

[RileyBowman]

42 minutes ago, Stuey said:

I am guessing this was their intent to eliminate most of 8.2.1.2. I read it as they are looking at keeping guns in SSP as they where sold.  No external modifications are going to be allowed because it takes away from how it sold originally from the gun maker.  

That is so dumb if true since so many guns leave a lot to be desired with factory sights. If shooting SSP, I would perhaps go so far as to choose a pistol BASED ON THE SIGHTS. After all, it's not like seeing the sights and aiming the gun is important or anything... 

[Michael303]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The problem with flashlights is they can give you a huge competitive advantage at some matches. Allowing them in IDPA would be the same as requiring them in IDPA. A lot of majors in this area will have 2 dark stages on their indoor range. If you shoot with a hand held light the odds of you winning that match against a WML are slim. If they allowed WML's and I were still serious about IDPA I'd drop my current gun in a heart beat to buy one that will make weight with a light on it. 

 

So I can see why HQ may not want to force WML's on everyone.

I can appreciate that it's annoying to have to update equipment occasionally to keep up with rule changes. That shouldn't be an unreasonable reality for someone that takes IDPA serious enough to attend a major match. 

 

Now if a stage designer wants to force the use of a handheld light for the skill/nostalgia then they should be able to write that into the stage brief. 

[Zincwarrior]

Facebook is irrelevant. It has to be in the rules or an express adjustment to the rules in an official capacity.

 

[Michael303]

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

 

I take that as them removing the length restriction from the ESP appendix and not blowing away 8.1.8 entirely.

 

We know that's been the unofficial word for a while but this update doesn't seem to mention anything specific to length.  They have created more confusion by being so vague. 

[Racinready300ex]

53 minutes ago, Michael303 said:

I can appreciate that it's annoying to have to update equipment occasionally to keep up with rule changes. That shouldn't be an unreasonable reality for someone that takes IDPA serious enough to attend a major match. 

 

Now if a stage designer wants to force the use of a handheld light for the skill/nostalgia then they should be able to write that into the stage brief. 

 

I doubt you'll convince IDPA of that. 

 

It's also not just majors. There are clubs that shoot low light stages from time to time. This would just add to the equipment race in the game. The original intent of IDPA was to get away from the equipment race that USPSA was becoming. But now days everyone wants equipment races so who knows.

 

Saying it's annoying is kind of a understatement though don't you think? If you're serious and have say a 43-45 oz gun in ESP or CO you need to sell your gun buy a new one that'll make weight with a light. You'll be out what? $1,500 dollars or more. Not to mention if you keep a back up. IDPA changed equipment rules back in 2013 making my only two guns illegal. After that I went to USPSA and haven't' taken IDPA seriously since. I still shoot it some, but I don't care what the rules are now because I'm not invested in it. 

[matteekay]

1 hour ago, RileyBowman said:

 After all, it's not like seeing the sights and aiming the gun is important or anything... 

 

Oh... you've seen me shoot...

[matteekay]

39 minutes ago, Michael303 said:

We know that's been the unofficial word for a while but this update doesn't seem to mention anything specific to length.  They have created more confusion by being so vague. 

 

No arguments from me.

 

My interpretation is 8.1.8 stands as-is and they're being more flexible with the rules in 8.2.2.2 and 8.2.2.3, but it's just that - an interpretation. I also think the SSP statement is an oversight and they're not intending to prevent you from changing sights but no one knows until it's official.

[RileyBowman]

9 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

Oh... you've seen me shoot...

 

LOL

 

6 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

No arguments from me.

 

My interpretation is 8.1.8 stands as-is and they're being more flexible with the rules in 8.2.2.2 and 8.2.2.3, but it's just that - an interpretation. I also think the SSP statement is an oversight and they're not intending to prevent you from changing sights but no one knows until it's official.

 

I would certainly hope so. Overly cautious or vague language like what they've used would be met with other unforeseen consequences such as unintentionally (I believe) prohibiting law enforcement officers from competing with duty weapons that may have agency-installed or policy-specified sights that aren't technically SKU matched.

It could also create confusion in terms of defining what SKUs actually are and exist, since there are SKUs out there that are not publicly listed (doesn't mean they aren't publicly available).
 

11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I doubt you'll convince IDPA of that. 

 

It's also not just majors. There are clubs that shoot low light stages from time to time. This would just add to the equipment race in the game. The original intent of IDPA was to get away from the equipment race that USPSA was becoming. But now days everyone wants equipment races so who knows.

 

Saying it's annoying is kind of a understatement though don't you think? If you're serious and have say a 43-45 oz gun in ESP or CO you need to sell your gun buy a new one that'll make weight with a light. You'll be out what? $1,500 dollars or more. Not to mention if you keep a back up. IDPA changed equipment rules back in 2013 making my only two guns illegal. After that I went to USPSA and haven't' taken IDPA seriously since. I still shoot it some, but I don't care what the rules are now because I'm not invested in it. 

 

Such a lofty and virtually impossible goal to avoid turning anything competitive into an equipment race. I've always chuckled at some of the original intent of the founding of IDPA since humans are gonna human, and if it is a competition (race), we're always going to look for competitive advantage in our equipment, even when we know that what truly matters is skill. It's in our nature. 

It's also interesting to me that in the search for practicality (and avoiding the equipment race) in the shooting sport, IDPA has established rules that specifically rule out commonly accepted equipment that people actually carry with on a daily basis. Funny how reality is that every gunfight is an open division one...

[Racinready300ex]

48 minutes ago, RileyBowman said:

Such a lofty and virtually impossible goal to avoid turning anything competitive into an equipment race. I've always chuckled at some of the original intent of the founding of IDPA since humans are gonna human, and if it is a competition (race), we're always going to look for competitive advantage in our equipment, even when we know that what truly matters is skill. It's in our nature. 

It's also interesting to me that in the search for practicality (and avoiding the equipment race) in the shooting sport, IDPA has established rules that specifically rule out commonly accepted equipment that people actually carry with on a daily basis. Funny how reality is that every gunfight is an open division one...

 

It's not that hard to limit the equipment race, look at SSP vs Open. Slightly different. In fact for the most part because of the scoring system and the 10 round limit little changes to your gear don't matter much in IDPA. I've watched guys win matches with their actual carry gun against the gamers. Barrels, mag release paddles and all that s#!t we argue over really has little effect on your score. Something like a WML on the other hand is a massive advantage on a low light stage.

 

Having shot a lot of matches with handheld lights I think a light is probably one of the best things you can add to your firearm. Does that mean IDPA should make low light stages easier? Meh. whatever. I can go either way. A WML makes shooting in the dark so much easier it's almost not worth setting up the match at night. But, easy is typically considered more fun too. So it would probably be a popular change. See USPSA for proof of how good it turns out. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Racinready300ex

[Jim Watson]

Having shot low light matches with hand held and weapon mounted lights, weapon mounted is a great advantage.

But low light matches are very scarce around here.  

Hanging a light on a gun for daylight matches because it is allowed and because it adds weight is real gamey.

 

Lund's statements about SSP are unfortunate.  Is he going to reject my Plastic M&P for its grip tape and aftermarket FO sight?  Fine under rules but not S&W catalog items.  

[Racinready300ex]

12 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

Hanging a light on a gun for daylight matches because it is allowed and because it adds weight is real gamey.

 

 

This is really what people want it for. It has nothing to do with "what people carry" or the gear I see at matches would be pretty different. People just make that claim when ever they want some new thing on their gun. 

[SGT_Schultz]

50 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

Lund's statements about SSP are unfortunate.  Is he going to reject my Plastic M&P for its grip tape and aftermarket FO sight?  Fine under rules but not S&W catalog items.  

 

IDPA doesn't have an official list of rule clarifications and what some guy said on social media doesn't overrule the official rulebook

 

So who cares what he said?