New gun rules.

[Jim Watson]

That is why there is a USPSA and innumerable wildcat matches made up to suit the  host club.

 

My club shoots one almost-IDPA and one that the MD thinks is USPSA but isn't.

[Racinready300ex]

On 11/17/2021 at 9:56 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Not sure how common it is but with my home range you can't have a match and not allow range members to attend. It gets down to either drop IDPA or let range members shoot regardless of their IDPA status. 

 

Personally, I quit paying IDPA dues when they changed the rules and made my CCP gun (Springfield XD 4") 0.25" too tall to be legal. They don't give a hoot about my wallet - I don't stuff theirs. Disclaimer - current rules requiring the waste of ammo to be competitive and making some of the best/most fun range equipment (e.g. Texas Star) illegal also make me crazy so maybe I would have exited eventually either way. 

 

My club is the same way, I'm only a member now to shoot majors. And I only really shoot IDPA majors to hang out with friends.

 

They did the same thing to my Revolvers years back when I shot them. That's what initially pushed me out too.

 

Also requiring me to waste ammo to be competitive is annoying. This year at any match that will let me I'm going to be the Dick shooting PCC because with a 30 round mag I don't need to round dump.

[matteekay]

43 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

They did the same thing to my Revolvers years back when I shot them. That's what initially pushed me out too.

 

Also requiring me to waste ammo to be competitive is annoying. This year at any match that will let me I'm going to be the Dick shooting PCC because with a 30 round mag I don't need to round dump.

 

Still not a fan of the revolver rule changes from 2016(?), but whatever, I'm set up for it now. I'm really curious if anyone ever runs SSR - all of the (competitive) revo's I saw at Nats were ESR (myself included).

 

Is round dumping that big of an issue for you guys? I try to build stages so it's never required but you have the option to do so; it's typically one round for the ESP/CO/SSP guns. I can't say that I've ever seen excessive round dumping at any of the local matches or Regionals, either.

[IHAVEGAS]

16 hours ago, matteekay said:

Is round dumping that big of an issue for you guys?

 

Dollar wise probably not. Philosophically, deliberate waste of ammo makes me crazy.

 

The initial reload rules were supposed to provide for maximum conservation of ammo based upon the belief that conserving ammo is wise in a tactical situation - unfortunately calling a shooter for round dumping under the initial rules was too subjective - so, rather than let shooters reload as they wish the rules were changed to force shooters to waste ammo, even though avoiding waste is supposed to be one of the self defense oriented priorities of the sport. 

 

J.Wilson noted that she does not want the sport to be "USPSA light" , it seems like that is the only reason for deliberate waste and loss of some really fun targets like the Texas star. 

[Racinready300ex]

16 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Still not a fan of the revolver rule changes from 2016(?), but whatever, I'm set up for it now. I'm really curious if anyone ever runs SSR - all of the (competitive) revo's I saw at Nats were ESR (myself included).

 

Is round dumping that big of an issue for you guys? I try to build stages so it's never required but you have the option to do so; it's typically one round for the ESP/CO/SSP guns. I can't say that I've ever seen excessive round dumping at any of the local matches or Regionals, either.

 

For me I had cut my hammers is a way that many had done at the time. Then they said if you could pull the trigger with your cyl open your gun wasn't safe to shoot making both of my $1K+ revolvers illegal at once. So I could fit new hammers or just shoot my 625 in uspsa. This was probably around 2013 or 2014. 

 

Round dumping is just annoying, and I think it's dumb. Stages around here you'll do a lot of it. I shoot way more "make up shots" in IDPA then I do in USPSA. I guess it separates the games.

[JWhit]

     A humble suggestion….remove the penalty for “round in chamber/empty mag on ground” and let shooters determine how they want to solve the COF.  In effect, round dumping IS round counting, so let shooters count to conserve ammo or dump ammo, as they choose.  IDPA would still differ significantly from USPSA for penalizing any ammo left on the ground.  If further definition of authorized reloads are required to update the rule book….1. emergency reload (slide lock), 2. tactical reload WITH retention (round in chamber/rounds in mag), and 3. tactical reload WITHOUT retention (round in chamber/empty mag).
     Just a thought, to prevent wasting ammo/time on targets that a shooter has adequately engaged just to induce a slide lock in the open - all of which seems counter-tactical.  
     For the record, there are plenty of great stage designers out there that are conscious of this situation and mitigate large round dumping scenarios, so not entirely the rule book’s fault here either.  

[Jim Watson]

Yeah, I got into a lot of round dumping debates over the split personality of a pair of rules that said, in effect  

In Vickers count, you may fire as many shots as you desire, unless the SO determines that your desires are impure.

 

I see quite a number of stages with disappearing targets located such that you must round dump or tac load to have enough ammo for that one look, typically an activator popper at the tenth shot.  

 

There is an outlaw shoot near here that approaches the matter the other way.

Reload as you like, but you only get one spare double stack magazine or two single stack.  Stages are longer than IDPA allows, too.

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Jim Watson

[IHAVEGAS]

24 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

you may fire as many shots as you desire, unless the SO determines that your desires are impure.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

30 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

There is an outlaw shoot near here that approaches the matter the other way.

Reload as you like, but you only get one spare double stack magazine or two single stack.  Stages are longer than IDPA allows, too.

 

Local club does (or did) 1 outlaw per year, Texas stars come out of the shed, reload rules get put in the shed, it is more fun. 

[Jim Watson]

A club near here runs one regulation IDPA match a month, the MD is the AC.

But he also runs one or two Fun shoots with lax rules.  

I have a video around here someplace of me shooting under floodlights on one of their summer evening events.  It is a typical IDPA layout, but he didn't care that I ignored fault lines and dropped an empty magazine but with a round in the chamber where I would have dumped a round under IDPA.

 

Most of the other shooters treated it as IDPA, stopping at the fault lines and either dumping a round, tac loading, or a standing reload.  

Edited November 19, 2021 by Jim Watson

[matteekay]

4 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Dollar wise probably not. Philosophically, deliberate waste of ammo makes me crazy.

 

That's fair. I could have phrased that better, too - I mostly meant "do you guys typically have to dump a lot of rounds on each stage?" Around here (including the big matches), it's usually something like one extra shot at an array if you want to reload on the run instead of taking a standing. Totally get that that may not be the case everywhere.

 

 

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

For me I had cut my hammers is a way that many had done at the time. Then they said if you could pull the trigger with your cyl open your gun wasn't safe to shoot making both of my $1K+ revolvers illegal at once. So I could fit new hammers or just shoot my 625 in uspsa. This was probably around 2013 or 2014. 

 

Ah, gotcha. I never realized that was a thing. I guess they argued that you disabled a safety feature? Which seems weird because you literally can't fire a revolver with the cylinder out, lol. I don't think anyone's ever checked that on mine but, even at Nats, it's luck of the draw in terms of who does your gear check.

 

 

2 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

Yeah, I got into a lot of round dumping debates over the split personality of a pair of rules that said, in effect  

In Vickers count, you may fire as many shots as you desire, unless the SO determines that your desires are impure.

 

That's not a thing. Did it used to be, though? I only shot one or two matches under the old rulebook. 

 

 

2 hours ago, JWhit said:

     A humble suggestion….remove the penalty for “round in chamber/empty mag on ground” and let shooters determine how they want to solve the COF.  In effect, round dumping IS round counting, so let shooters count to conserve ammo or dump ammo, as they choose.  IDPA would still differ significantly from USPSA for penalizing any ammo left on the ground.  If further definition of authorized reloads are required to update the rule book….1. emergency reload (slide lock), 2. tactical reload WITH retention (round in chamber/rounds in mag), and 3. tactical reload WITHOUT retention (round in chamber/empty mag).
     Just a thought, to prevent wasting ammo/time on targets that a shooter has adequately engaged just to induce a slide lock in the open - all of which seems counter-tactical.  
     For the record, there are plenty of great stage designers out there that are conscious of this situation and mitigate large round dumping scenarios, so not entirely the rule book’s fault here either.  

 

I think that's the heart of the problem. It's really an issue with the reload rules and round-dumping is a side effect. I'd fully support trashing the reload requirements and letting shooters reload wherever, whenever; it's honestly the hardest part of the sport to explain to new shooters. My only request is the loading device count remains the same so I can laugh at someone who reloaded at a poor time and has to go back and find a partially full mag, lol. 

[Racinready300ex]

16 minutes ago, matteekay said:

Ah, gotcha. I never realized that was a thing. I guess they argued that you disabled a safety feature? Which seems weird because you literally can't fire a revolver with the cylinder out, lol. I don't think anyone's ever checked that on mine but, even at Nats, it's luck of the draw in terms of who does your gear check.

 

 

There are probably threads on here or the old IDPA forum. There wasn't a rule against it, and a lot of people did it. It was a way of bobbing the hammer "Carmoized". I'm sure uspsa shooters still do it. I still have my 8 shot gun set up this way. 

 

One year at S&W indoor Nats they gave someone s#!t about disabling a safety device just like you pointed out. I'm not sure anyone had considered that was a safety feature before that. I assumed it was someone at Smith that picked up on it. Anyway the next rule book there was a new rule saying you couldn't do that.

 

Years before I shot IDPA revolver division allowed 5" guns, one day they changed the rules to a 4" limit. That also drove people away from the sport. Then add CCP to the list as IHAVEGAS pointed out, which seemed to really hurt that division. There is a bit of a trend of making big rule changes that can cost members a lot of money. 

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, matteekay said:

I think that's the heart of the problem. It's really an issue with the reload rules and round-dumping is a side effect. I'd fully support trashing the reload requirements and letting shooters reload wherever, whenever; it's honestly the hardest part of the sport to explain to new shooters. My only request is the loading device count remains the same so I can laugh at someone who reloaded at a poor time and has to go back and find a partially full mag, lol. 

 

This I'd like to see too. Especially the part where someone runs out of ammo and needs to run back for the mag they dropped earlier in the stage. lol

[IHAVEGAS]

34 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

This I'd like to see too. Especially the part where someone runs out of ammo and needs to run back for the mag they dropped earlier in the stage. lol

Been there but it was a USPSA match, just gave the guy a reshoot for being interfered with, if he would have tried a mad dash uprange the guy with his nose in the iPad and the buddy filming him would either force him to wait or end up between him and the rest of the targets.  

Now, when I see a mag dropped by accident I signal folks to stay well back  

[Jim Watson]

7 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Then they said if you could pull the trigger with your cyl open your gun wasn't safe to shoot making both of my $1K+ revolvers illegal at once.

 

Good thing I never got caught in a technical inspection while I was shooting my Python.  Colts don't have that interlock at all and the SO would have been terribly confused.  

[RePete]

8 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

J.Wilson noted that she does not want the sport to be "USPSA light" , it seems like that is the only reason for deliberate waste and loss of some really fun targets like the Texas star. 

 Too late, IDPA is already, maybe 3 years or so, USPSA/IPSC light thanks to the rules.

[usmc1974]

Here is the way see/play it. IDPA is mostly about the money, unless it is some kind super match show up pay up, don't ask alot  of questions shoot up..lol

[matteekay]

17 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

Here is the way see/play it. IDPA is mostly about the money, unless it is some kind super match show up pay up, don't ask alot  of questions shoot up..lol

 

"Please note that the Brian Enos Forum does not endorse 'shooting up'. Yourself, or anyone/anything else."

[usmc1974]

6 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

"Please note that the Brian Enos Forum does not endorse 'shooting up'. Yourself, or anyone/anything else."

Lol yeah, OK then