Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

New gun rules.


Scooter

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

IDPA doesn't have an official list of rule clarifications and what some guy said on social media doesn't overrule the official rulebook

 

So who cares what he said?

 

It is now posted on the IDPA webpage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 118
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

This is really what people want it for. It has nothing to do with "what people carry" or the gear I see at matches would be pretty different. People just make that claim when ever they want some new thing on their gun. 


I carry daily a 47 oz gun with WML in the appendix position, so...

I get that compared to the general gun carrying public I am an anomaly, but things have shifted in the last few years on this a fair amount.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

This is really what people want it for. It has nothing to do with "what people carry" or the gear I see at matches would be pretty different. People just make that claim when ever they want some new thing on their gun. 

The reason you don't see more shooters using their actual carry setup is because the rules don't allow the gear that most people under 50 years old actually carry.  When USPSA allowed flashlights there was no shortage of people who thought it would be cats and dogs living together but in reality it's been a big nothingburger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Michael303 said:

The reason you don't see more shooters using their actual carry setup is because the rules don't allow the gear that most people under 50 years old actually carry.  When USPSA allowed flashlights there was no shortage of people who thought it would be cats and dogs living together but in reality it's been a big nothingburger.

Agreed.

 

And I've been pleasantly surprised to see the number of guys shooting (at least occasionally) their ACTUAL carry setup at USPSA matches this year since the rule changes. Some have even done so at major matches. I would have never thought I'd see that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Michael303 said:

The reason you don't see more shooters using their actual carry setup is because the rules don't allow the gear that most people under 50 years old actually carry.  When USPSA allowed flashlights there was no shortage of people who thought it would be cats and dogs living together but in reality it's been a big nothingburger.

 

What gear can't you use? Flashlight really that stops you? To make sure I'm following, you could take your light off your CCW gun and run a strong side holster. But instead you're like I'm just going to go full gamer mode but I totally would use my carry gear if only I was allowed. I call bulls#!t, if you're gaming it now you'll just game it more with any loosening of the rules. 

 

I've never shot a low light stage in USPSA so the light itself doesn't matter. Mostly people are running them as frame weights. But low light is a thing in IDPA and a lot of fun. I don't shoot a ton of IDPA, but if they add WML I think I could make my CCP gun into a CO gun with a light so I'll make do But, if I didn't already have something that would work I'd just skip any future matches with low light stages. And I think that's IDPA's concern. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

What gear can't you use? Flashlight really that stops you? To make sure I'm following, you could take your light off your CCW gun and run a strong side holster. But instead you're like I'm just going to go full gamer mode but I totally would use my carry gear if only I was allowed. I call bulls#!t, if you're gaming it now you'll just game it more with any loosening of the rules. 

 

Mike shoots a lot of IDPA (and does really well). I think his point was more about the fact that he has to un-carry his carry gun (which normally has a WML and is appendix-carried) in order to compete in the "realistic" shooting sport that's supposed to be for carry gear.

 

We also shoot a ton of low light at our club. With your concern about lights becoming mandatory - it would be the matter of adding a sentence to the WSB that requires the shooter to use a handheld light regardless of whether or not their gun has one. IDPA could also write it into the rules that lenses of WML's must be covered with tape (just like what they do for integral lasers now).

 

Yeah, the light becomes a de-facto frame weight at that point. To which I cite the USPSA response on the matter: "So?". We still have a box and a relatively low max weight, but allowing them would let shooters practice with their actual carry gear. Which was sorta the founding principle of IDPA, no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

 

 order to compete in the "realistic" shooting sport that's supposed to be for carry gear.

 

IDPA isn't either of those things. Something about kittens. 

 

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

 

We also shoot a ton of low light at our club. With your concern about lights becoming mandatory - it would be the matter of adding a sentence to the WSB that requires the shooter to use a handheld light regardless of whether or not their gun has one. IDPA could also write it into the rules that lenses of WML's must be covered with tape (just like what they do for integral lasers now).

 

You'll also need to make it clear on PS when someone signs up that's how you're going to run the match. And even then you're going to hear the same complaints about why can't I use my light? It's my carry gear, yada yada. We'll be in exactly the same place we are now, until we're just running the wml's. Want to compete buy a gun/light combo that's legal. 

 

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

 

Yeah, the light becomes a de-facto frame weight at that point. To which I cite the USPSA response on the matter: "So?". We still have a box and a relatively low max weight, but allowing them would let shooters practice with their actual carry gear. Which was sorta the founding principle of IDPA, no?

 

You're right, the weight doesn't really matter in IDPA, that's why I've specifically mentioned the issue is that unlike uspsa low light is part of IDPA. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Did everyone at that match shoot in the dark? I heard it was 1 squad on one day due to back ups. How much of a advantage was your light on that stage? 

 

No.  But those that had a light for that squad had an advantage, for those that did not on that squad.  The match schedule dictated that shooting would end before sundown.  That obviously was not the case.

 

My point was more to it can happen, regardless of what brought about the situation.  

 

That event also opened up a whole other can of worms in that target presentation was not the same for all competitors.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

No.  But those that had a light for that squad had an advantage, for those that did not on that squad.  The match schedule dictated that shooting would end before sundown.  That obviously was not the case.

 

My point was more to it can happen, regardless of what brought about the situation.  

 

That event also opened up a whole other can of worms in that target presentation was not the same for all competitors.

 

 

It's a decent example of what I was getting at. Allowing them basically requires them. Do most members want that? I don't think so, I think like many things there is a vocal minority that want the rules loosened. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

That event also opened up a whole other can of worms in that target presentation was not the same for all competitors.

 

 

They probably should of had those guys shoot the next day during the change over a mid day. Sounds like one stage should of been tossed too, so I don't the USPSA is super concerned with the match being fair anymore. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

Allowing them basically requires them. Do most members want that? I don't think so, I think like many things there is a vocal minority that want the rules loosened. 

 

I can agree with both points.  I think it was the bitching of "tactical timmies" and the "I want to shoot what I carry" crowd which in my eyes is a super small minority in USPSA. I am not sure I agree with placating to that minority when most will never use a WML ever.

 

I do however see the point in IDPA in regards to WML.  After all the idea of IDPA is to shoot from a self defense perspective, which would mean shoot what you carry.  However, I do not think the way IDPA has it rules currently setup is after that ideal at all.  That is a whole other discussion.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

IDPA isn't either of those things. Something about kittens. 

 

So in arguing against lights, you say they're gamey. Then when it's brought up that lights are part of common carry gear, IDPA is not about carry gear. Seems like a very specific niche the sport is supposed to live in. It would be way faster simply to say "I don't want to have to buy a light" and be done.

 

Maybe some additional perspective will help. I'm a match director for one local and typically get tasked with new shooter briefings at another. It's no exaggeration that a full third of new shooters are arriving with WML's installed (with holsters that necessitate the light remains installed). We let them leave the WML installed for their first match as long as they don't turn it on because it's safer than having the gun loose in the holster... but I'm forced to tell them to replace their carry holster with something else for a sport where "your concealed carry holster could also be your match holster without handicap" and remove their EDC light for a match that "simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

What gear can't you use? Flashlight really that stops you? To make sure I'm following, you could take your light off your CCW gun and run a strong side holster. But instead you're like I'm just going to go full gamer mode but I totally would use my carry gear if only I was allowed. I call bulls#!t, if you're gaming it now you'll just game it more with any loosening of the rules. 

 

I've never shot a low light stage in USPSA so the light itself doesn't matter. Mostly people are running them as frame weights. But low light is a thing in IDPA and a lot of fun. I don't shoot a ton of IDPA, but if they add WML I think I could make my CCP gun into a CO gun with a light so I'll make do But, if I didn't already have something that would work I'd just skip any future matches with low light stages. And I think that's IDPA's concern. 

 

I can't use my carry gun in my carry holster in IDPA.  Given that, why would I bother NOT using my normal USPSA gun out of a belt holster that I already have for it in IDPA, instead of buying more things? 

"you're gaming it now" -- or maybe you shouldn't generalize your personal opinions about a large set of people that you know nothing about.  Just a suggestion.

 

And just because YOU'VE never shot a low light stage doesn't mean the light doesn't matter.  It just means that your sample size (and sample type) is both smaller and different from other people's.  Helpful hint when dealing with other people:  They aren't you.

 

"Mostly people are running them as frame weights."  -- mind citing ANY stat backing that up?  Or is "I read it on Enos" all that is behind that comment?

 

Basically, plenty of people run competition guns in IDPA literally because their carry gun/holster setup isn't legal in IDPA.  The fact that you don't believe it doesn't change the reality of it.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

So in arguing against lights, you say they're gamey. Then when it's brought up that lights are part of common carry gear, IDPA is not about carry gear. Seems like a very specific niche the sport is supposed to live in. It would be way faster simply to say "I don't want to have to buy a light" and be done.

 

Maybe some additional perspective will help. I'm a match director for one local and typically get tasked with new shooter briefings at another. It's no exaggeration that a full third of new shooters are arriving with WML's installed (with holsters that necessitate the light remains installed). We let them leave the WML installed for their first match as long as they don't turn it on because it's safer than having the gun loose in the holster... but I'm forced to tell them to replace their carry holster with something else for a sport where "your concealed carry holster could also be your match holster without handicap" and remove their EDC light for a match that "simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters".

 

Well put.

 

(In USPSA, the next local match we had after USPSA allowed WMLs and appendix carry in CO, we had four new folks show up with their carry guns in AIWB holsters with lights.  And they've kept shooting with us ever since.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

I can't use my carry gun in my carry holster in IDPA.  Given that, why would I bother NOT using my normal USPSA gun out of a belt holster that I already have for it in IDPA, instead of buying more things? .

 

So what gun do you carry that isn't legal in IDPA? 

 

11 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

And just because YOU'VE never shot a low light stage doesn't mean the light doesn't matter.  

 

How often do you shoot low light in USPSA? I honestly didn't know people still did that. I've heard it was a thing long ago but I've never seen it on the east coast.

 

11 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

"Mostly people are running them as frame weights."  -- mind citing ANY stat backing that up?  Or is "I read it on Enos" all that is behind that comment?

 

have you seen the lok light that's advertised as a frame weight and not a light? Have you seen the tungsten batteries? Can you explain why people who never used lights in this area went out and bought brass lights for there guns when as I pointed out I've never seen a uspsa match in low light?

 

 

11 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Basically, plenty of people run competition guns in IDPA literally because their carry gun/holster setup isn't legal in IDPA.  The fact that you don't believe it doesn't change the reality of it.

 

 

I don't believe it because it's fake news. I know one guy that runs his carry gun all the time. I know several that will break them out from time to time for fun. For the most part everyone is shooting game guns. Yeah the sample size is only this area a half dozen clubs and a few hundred people but I'd bet it's a good sample of the general IDPA population. The fact that you carry some odd ball gun that isn't legal in any division doesn't make you the norm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, RePete said:

I posted this on the IDPA forum - the original offical IDPA forum.

 

I found it straight forward.

I'm sorry, but the "powers to be" couldn't organise a pi$$ up in a brewery.

 

I wish I could argue with that. This should have been a total win (and it wouldn't have been hard to make it one).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So what gun do you carry that isn't legal in IDPA? 

 

 

It's hilarious to me that AIWB isn't legal in IDPA. This precludes every gun I carry because I carry them all AIWB.

 

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

have you seen the lok light that's advertised as a frame weight and not a light? Have you seen the tungsten batteries? Can you explain why people who never used lights in this area went out and bought brass lights for there guns when as I pointed out I've never seen a uspsa match in low light?

 

 

And how many of them are still running LOK Lights after the craze to buy them? (Very few that I've seen.)

 

How many of them realized the juice wasn't worth the squeeze? (Most of them. Dang that front-end heavy pistol becomes more challenging to transition with!)

 

How many top competitors at the recent Nationals were running LOK Lights? (None that I saw, but there could have been a couple since I didn't see everybody shoot.)

 

How many were running actual WMLs? (A few including one on my squad.)

 

What was their purpose for running them? (Not because they thought it would give them an advantage on unplanned low-light stages, I guarantee that! The one guy I asked about it, he just said, "It's setup the same way as it is as my carry gun." What holster was he using? An OWB PHLster Floodlight, a common WML compatible holster with a AIWB counterpart that many use for EDC. And this was at a NATIONALS! I was intrigued even as a guy that carries daily with a Streamlight TLR-1HL in a Floodlight AIWB.)

The fact that so many still view this as a competitive advantage type issue is funny to me. Look at what the top guys are winning with. I say if a gun meets weight, it meets weight. I couldn't care less what aftermarket light or frame weight you have on there as long as it meets weight. 

Nils is still extremely competitive with a mostly stock Canik that weighs nothing compared to the X5 Legions and CZs he competes against.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Did everyone at that match shoot in the dark? I heard it was 1 squad on one day due to back ups. How much of a advantage was your light on that stage? 

 

I watched the last squad that was shooting on Day 1 at CO Nats. I watched the very last guy shoot (Luke Faust) that published the YouTube video of him doing it with his WML. I definitely think they should have tried to fit some of those shooters or squads in on Day 2 or 3. Regardless, targets were dim but still plenty visible to make out especially considering everybody was shooting red dots at that match. Luke, however, as a Production guy that has pretty much never shot CO (from what I understand), admitted to using his backup irons for much of the match since that's what he's used to. (I do think the lighting conditions would have been a MAJOR disadvantage for an iron sighted shooter.) So he elected to use his WML to give him greater contrast for his irons. 

It was NOT an advantage to use the WML, especially if your loads were smoky at all (like Luke's certainly were). He couldn't see anything through the cloud of smoke that was lit up by his light. I felt bad for him, but in a way it was also quite humorous to watch.

 

FWIW...I'm glad that stage he was shooting (Stage 17) didn't get thrown out because I won that stage. 😆

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Well put.

 

(In USPSA, the next local match we had after USPSA allowed WMLs and appendix carry in CO, we had four new folks show up with their carry guns in AIWB holsters with lights.  And they've kept shooting with us ever since.)

 

I've seen this as well--a surprising number of shooters showing up to matches with their actual carry gear (usually a CO pistol with WML) and quite often carried AIWB. I've been surprised at the number of people I've seen at major matches even doing this. Les Pepperoni is quite well known for shooting matches from AIWB, but in the past he was limited to running essentially a Production gun in Limited and a CO gun in Open to be legal. Now he's been shooting a bunch of matches this year from AIWB in CO division.

IDPA won't budge and create a place for MODERN concealed carriers to show up and compete without changing their gear.

 

So USPSA steps up and creates that space. I applaud that.

 

I don't care if it's a small minority that it serves, I'm just glad it exists as an option for those who care to do it. It's not like there's any advantage gained by doing so, so I don't understand why it's something that's complained about so much. And again, WMLs don't provide as much advantage as what people like to think, so again, a big nothing sandwich.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...