New gun rules.

[Jim Watson]

8 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

Similarly, I have been swept by a USPSA BBIWB from a starting position at 45 deg off the line of fire.

 

To quote a usually reliable source (me) the setup was unusual.  

But the guy was WEARING his gun at or very near 180 deg.  

 

[RGinIdaho]

On 10/29/2021 at 8:52 AM, RGinIdaho said:

Always wanted to run the 40 cal, bushing barreled, Eagle 5.0 in ESP with 180gr minor loads. The old bull, heavy or coned language in the rule always made its use unclear. 
 

It sounds like an option now…

Looks like I goofed when typing that one! Should have read bushing-less.

[Thomas H]

On 10/28/2021 at 12:08 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

So what gun do you carry that isn't legal in IDPA? 

 

 

How often do you shoot low light in USPSA? I honestly didn't know people still did that. I've heard it was a thing long ago but I've never seen it on the east coast.

 

 

have you seen the lok light that's advertised as a frame weight and not a light? Have you seen the tungsten batteries? Can you explain why people who never used lights in this area went out and bought brass lights for there guns when as I pointed out I've never seen a uspsa match in low light?

 

 

 

I don't believe it because it's fake news. I know one guy that runs his carry gun all the time. I know several that will break them out from time to time for fun. For the most part everyone is shooting game guns. Yeah the sample size is only this area a half dozen clubs and a few hundred people but I'd bet it's a good sample of the general IDPA population. The fact that you carry some odd ball gun that isn't legal in any division doesn't make you the norm.

 

Let's see, breaking this down:

1) Please read what I wrote, because I said:  "I can't use my carry gun in my carry holster in IDPA.  Given that, why would I bother NOT using my normal USPSA gun out of a belt holster that I already have for it in IDPA, instead of buying more things?"

2) I've shot dark house stages several times in USPSA.  I mean, there's one range that hosts major matches that literally has a dark house stage in every match.  Again---just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean anything with respect to everyone else.

 

3) I love how "please cite some stats" is responded to with "have you seen this one thing that you can buy?"  Sure, I've seen the LOK light.  I haven't seen anyone buy one.  By your reasoning, that means no one has bought one.  (That's obviously untrue, but that's the logic you've been using.)    And what you said makes little sense:  "Can you explain why people who never used lights in this area went out and bought brass lights for there guns when as I pointed out I've never seen a uspsa match in low light?"

Never used lights in this area?  How do you know?  Literally, how do you know that their carry guns don't have lights on them?  They literally couldn't have used them in matches before.  And again---unless you can actually come up with some stats on how many people actually DID go buy "brass lights for there [sic] guns" again, your commentary means nothing. 

And plenty of people have shot USPSA low light and dark house stages. 

 

4) I don't believe it because it is fake news....based on the data you don't have?  Ok.  And literally nothing else you said in that part was relevant, other than the parts that were factually incorrect.

 

Again:  Other people are not you.  Your experiences (or lack thereof) don't actually define what is going on for other people.  A number of us have literally seen people come TO the sport based on light usage.  And a number of us have indeed shot dark house and low light stages, indeed in majors.

 

And commentary like this:
"None of the USPSA stuff really matters to IDPA. Why? Because USPSA doesn't do low light stages (at least on intentionally). IDPA does. And apparently @Thomas H's club does dark stages in USPSA, unless he's full of it. "

...is factually wrong.  USPSA does have low light and dark house stages.  Rarely, but it does happen.  And I didn't say my club did it, so you should probably start reading what people write instead of making up random things and then going off about them.  

 

Seriously, have you never heard of dark house stages in USPSA? 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Let's see, breaking this down:

1) Please read what I wrote, because I said:  "I can't use my carry gun in my carry holster in IDPA.  Given that, why would I bother NOT using my normal USPSA gun out of a belt holster that I already have for it in IDPA, instead of buying more things?" 

 

So your gun is legal too. And oddly your uspsa gear is IDPA legal too. 

 

11 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

2) I've shot dark house stages several times in USPSA.  I mean, there's one range that hosts major matches that literally has a dark house stage in every match.  Again---just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean anything with respect to everyone else.

 

Do you put on practicscore for everyone to bring handheld flashlights? Start with it in your hand like IDPA?

 

11 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

And commentary like this:
"None of the USPSA stuff really matters to IDPA. Why? Because USPSA doesn't do low light stages (at least on intentionally). IDPA does. And apparently @Thomas H's club does dark stages in USPSA, unless he's full of it. "

...is factually wrong.  USPSA does have low light and dark house stages.  Rarely, but it does happen.  And I didn't say my club did it, so you should probably start reading what people write instead of making up random things and then going off about them.  

 

Seriously, have you never heard of dark house stages in USPSA? 

 

 

 

I like how something that by your own words is rare but I should know about it because it's so common. 

 

So is the whole point here you think IDPA should have WML's like USPSA and ditch the handheld lights?

 

 

[Thomas H]

On 11/1/2021 at 1:34 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

So your gun is legal too. And oddly your uspsa gear is IDPA legal too. 

 

 

Do you put on practicscore for everyone to bring handheld flashlights? Start with it in your hand like IDPA?

 

 

I like how something that by your own words is rare but I should know about it because it's so common. 

 

So is the whole point here you think IDPA should have WML's like USPSA and ditch the handheld lights?

 

 

 

I am amazed of how many times you literally obviously didn't understand what I wrote.

 

My carry gun is legal.  My carry holster is not.  My USPSA holster is not.  And again, it was a specific, direct example of why people don't shoot they carry gear in IDPA matches.  Your lack of understanding of it is not our problem, other than we keep having to reply to your incorrect statements.

 

Your question about flashlights is literally meaningless, as the topic was about whether or not dark or low-light stages occur.  I showed they did.  You mistakenly thought I held those matches (though I never said anything of the sort) and you seem to STILL think I do, asking me about Practiscore, even though I talked about a large range having a dark house used in major matches.  Your question has nothing to do with the topic.  And the discussion was USPSA, so your asking about
"like IDPA" makes little sense.

 

You are the one who said it doesn't happen, even though several people pointed out that it did.  And happened in major matches. Changing your contention from "this doesn't happen" to "it is rare so why should I know about it" is odd, since your contention should have changed from "this doesn't happen" to "oh, it does happen, I didn't know, I should stop arguing that it doesn't happen."

 

As for your last comment:  You really, really should stop trying to make up things that other people didn't say.  Seriously.

 

You made claims.  You were asked for cites or ANY data to back up your claims.  You continue to provide absolutely nothing.

 

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

I am amazed of how many times you literally obviously didn't understand what I wrote.

 

My carry gun is legal.  My carry holster is not.  My USPSA holster is not.  And again, it was a specific, direct example of why people don't shoot they carry gear in IDPA matches.  Your lack of understanding of it is not our problem, other than we keep having to reply to your incorrect statements.

 

Your question about flashlights is literally meaningless, as the topic was about whether or not dark or low-light stages occur.  I showed they did.  You mistakenly thought I held those matches (though I never said anything of the sort) and you seem to STILL think I do, asking me about Practiscore, even though I talked about a large range having a dark house used in major matches.  Your question has nothing to do with the topic.  And the discussion was USPSA, so your asking about
"like IDPA" makes little sense.

 

You are the one who said it doesn't happen, even though several people pointed out that it did.  And happened in major matches. Changing your contention from "this doesn't happen" to "it is rare so why should I know about it" is odd, since your contention should have changed from "this doesn't happen" to "oh, it does happen, I didn't know, I should stop arguing that it doesn't happen."

 

As for your last comment:  You really, really should stop trying to make up things that other people didn't say.  Seriously.

 

You made claims.  You were asked for cites or ANY data to back up your claims.  You continue to provide absolutely nothing.

 

 

I didn't get your hostility right out of the gate with your first response. 

 

But, I get it. USPSA has matches in the dark in other parts of the country but rarely. I didn't know that was a thing as I haven't seen it or heard of it happening. I didn't mistakenly think you ran them. I mistakenly thought I could ask a questions about them since you seem to have participated. I can only assume the must use hand held flashlights and put it on PS so people know what they're getting into. I may never really know. 

 

I still don't think IDPA should add WML's, which was my point from the beginning you just seem really hung up on making sure I know that USPSA dark stages. Which I don't really care about tbh. 

[Racinready300ex]

On 10/28/2021 at 12:48 PM, matteekay said:

 

So in arguing against lights, you say they're gamey. Then when it's brought up that lights are part of common carry gear, IDPA is not about carry gear. Seems like a very specific niche the sport is supposed to live in. It would be way faster simply to say "I don't want to have to buy a light" and be done.

 

 

I was reading back through this since Tom likes to bring it back up.

 

Anyway my point wasn't so much that flashlights are to gamey, but that if you allow them they'll become a requirement if you shoot matches in the dark. In fact I'm pretty sure I've read in the past that's the reason they're not allowed. And I think that's reasonable. 

 

I wasn't concerned with low light in USPSA because I didn't know it was such a big thing. If I lived near those matches I'd of started running a WML the min uspsa changed the rules, as I imagine everyone did. In fact I already had the gear, I got bumped to GM in limited with a CCP size 2011 with a disabled WML pre the rule change. So while everyone was trying to find holsters I'd of been smacken dat azz with a WML. Too bad we don't have that hear. 

 

So it's not that I don't want to buy one, my CCP 2011 would still make ESP weight with a light. I'm just not convinced we need them in IDPA matches. But I can also see the point about not wanting to turn people away. Clearly Joyce is okay with turning people away if they want to run carry gear. 

[matteekay]

49 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

So it's not that I don't want to buy one, my CCP 2011 would still make ESP weight with a light. I'm just not convinced we need them in IDPA matches. But I can also see the point about not wanting to turn people away. Clearly Joyce is okay with turning people away if they want to run carry gear. 

 

It's not a hill I'm willing to die on, but it would make my life as an MD easier if people could use their real carry gear. I still think the lowlight thing is easily solvable by saying "you must use a handheld light for this stage"; it doesn't feel any more ridiculous than "you must complete this stage carrying a ten-pound kettlebell to simulate a baby carrier" (source: CO State Championship 2019).

 

Ultimately... whatever. It's a rulebook and it's really easy to get dragged into philosophical or ethical arguments about its intent. I'm going to keep handling it how I have, which is new shooters get a one-time pass (if their holster won't work without the light), and then they either need to replace the holster or shoot in NFC. 

[rowdyb]

On 10/28/2021 at 9:41 AM, Racinready300ex said:

shoot in the dark?

PASA Park was infamous for using their darkened shoot house at national matches. I shoot a few Prod nats there that having a wml would have been a huge benefit on that stage.

[matteekay]

19 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

PASA Park was infamous for using their darkened shoot house at national matches. I shoot a few Prod nats there that having a wml would have been a huge benefit on that stage.

 

Welp, now you can live your dreams!

[rowdyb]

9 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Welp, now you can live your dreams!

haha except i don't own a single gun with a wml. not a single personal one, not a single game gun, none of them. and i've shot idpa long enough i remember when you basically had to take a flash light to every match you went to because there would be some sort of lowlight stage.

[RePete]

48 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

haha except i don't own a single gun with a wml. not a single personal one, not a single game gun, none of them. and i've shot idpa long enough i remember when you basically had to take a flash light to every match you went to because there would be some sort of lowlight stage.

You forgot to add that until 2017, or was it 2015, the flashlight had to be carried in a f/l holster or a pocket. I don't like the f/l in hand starts.

Edited November 12, 2021 by RePete

[rowdyb]

2 minutes ago, RePete said:

You forgot to add that until 2017, or was it 2015, the flashlight had to be carried in a f/l holster or a pocket. I don't like the f/l in hand starts.

 And I remember the ring on my surefire being made illegal and having to switch to a syringe hold.

 

And as these screen shots show from a match I shot, sometimes they'd make everyone use the same, huge maglight flashlight in a room almost totally dark. I don't think this ever happens anymore....

[RePete]

Don't forget the controversy about the L shaped flashlight.

[Racinready300ex]

On 11/11/2021 at 10:30 PM, rowdyb said:

PASA Park was infamous for using their darkened shoot house at national matches. I shoot a few Prod nats there that having a wml would have been a huge benefit on that stage.

 

I'm sure even in moderately low light with irons having a light would help. When I shot frost proof in 2019 inside that building was pretty dark when it's raining. I'm sure a WML would be a benefit if I didn't have a dot.

 

When I was talking shoot in the dark I mean like total darkness can't see your hand in front of your face kind of dark. Which I see you've shot too. I'm still thinking some of the guys saying uspsa has low light stages aren't talking about the same thing I was. I think it might be really hard to do uspsa safely in total darkness.

 

I recently shot a IDPA match with a PCC that had 2 dark stages. The WML made the fact that the lights where off basically meaningless.

 

I can remember when you had to turn your light off while reloading. Doing that with a revolver was interesting. 

[rowdyb]

9 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

like total darkness

Having shot the S&W idpa indoor nats a few times there were definitely stages you shot in extremely low light without the benefit of any ancillary illumination. Made sure I had a tritium front sight for that match every time!

[shred]

The PASA shoot house was completely can't-see-your-hand-in-front-of-your-face dark at more than one USPSA Nationals.  Most of the time, since Surefire paid for and built said dark house, there was a Surefire light or two you would use. 

 

I think the ROs finally insisted on a 'dim house' since otherwise they had no idea where muzzles might be pointing until shots were fired as they had some minimal illumination the last few Nats I shot there.

 

Double-tap one year had an entire bay covered over and lit with tiki torches.  Fun stage, but very smoky.

 

[Thomas H]

On 11/11/2021 at 1:25 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I didn't get your hostility right out of the gate with your first response. 

 

But, I get it. USPSA has matches in the dark in other parts of the country but rarely. I didn't know that was a thing as I haven't seen it or heard of it happening. I didn't mistakenly think you ran them. I mistakenly thought I could ask a questions about them since you seem to have participated. I can only assume the must use hand held flashlights and put it on PS so people know what they're getting into. I may never really know. 

 

I still don't think IDPA should add WML's, which was my point from the beginning you just seem really hung up on making sure I know that USPSA dark stages. Which I don't really care about tbh. 

 

It is interesting that you say the above since your earlier posts are still available for everyone to read, and we can clearly see that you indeed thought I and my club ran them.  And can also clearly see that "asking questions about them" is not what you were doing.

 

As for what I "just seem really hung up on," that's probably because you kept saying things about it that were incorrect.  Literally, everything said was a response to YOUR incorrect commentary.  If you didn't care about it, why did you keep bringing it up?

 

As people have pointed out, PASA had a dark house that they used in numerous major matches, including Nats.  And it was complete darkness most of the time, versus "the light is a little low" which again, people have pointed out.

 

As for whether IDPA should start allowing WMLs, that rather depends on whether or not IDPA is going to with the "people are supposed to be using their carry gear" principle, or instead from the "this is easier on the sport" point of view.

 

Given that they aren't allowing AIWB carry and ARE allowing PCC in a sport that literally says "every day carry," it seems pretty obvious that barring something significant happening, they'll stick with the "easier on the sport" route.

 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

55 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

 

You're right my posts are available to read. 

 

My first post about USPSA low light is me saying I've never shot one. No claim they never happened.

 

 

"I've never shot a low light stage in USPSA so the light itself doesn't matter. "

 

Then you chimed in about how I don't know anything about all the uspsa low light stages.

 

To which I replied. 

"How often do you shoot low light in USPSA? I honestly didn't know people still did that. I've heard it was a thing long ago but I've never seen it on the east coast."

 

Now others have posed there were dark stages with flashlights at PASA years ago and that pressure from RO's concerns lead them to stop doing them. This kind of goes along with my quote above.

 

But, I guess you got me. There were dark stages at a range 1k miles from hear some years ago. 

 

[RePete]

This just in.

 

In order to continue serving our IDPA members and clubs with the same high level of service and support they have come to expect, we are raising the annual rates, effective January 1, 2022.

We will be raising both individual member rates, and club rates, both new and renewal, $10 per year. This will make memberships for one year, for both international and US members, $50 per year, or $135 for 3 year memberships and renewals.

We will be offering the same discounted rates for memberships, $5 off per year, for 3 year memberships and renewals.

Club registration fees will go up to $110 per year for new clubs, and renewals will go up to $70 per year, for both US and internationals clubs. The new fees for 3 year renewals will still have discounted rates of $195.

We are not raising the costs of matches. Sanctioned match fees are not going up. And competitors may join at the existing rates up until January 1, 2022. Existing members may renew, even locking in existing rates on 3 year renewals, up until January 1, 2022.

We know our members and clubs expect great support and service from HQ and we haven’t raised these rates in more than a decade. In our best efforts to serve, we must raise rates to continue to provide all our members and affiliated clubs with our very best level of support.
 

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, RePete said:

This just in.

 

In order to continue serving our IDPA members and clubs with the same high level of service and support they have come to expect, we are raising the annual rates, effective January 1, 2022.

 

 

 

I wonder why.......

[RePete]

6 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

 

I wonder why.......

They need more money.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, RePete said:

They need more money.

 

Not enough people are paying

[Jim Watson]

Could be.  

Not all clubs are strict about requiring shooters to join to enter after three  visits.

 

Or, as Frank used to say. "We are required to hold six IDPA matches a year to keep our affiliation.  This isn't one of them." 

[IHAVEGAS]

27 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

Could be.  

Not all clubs are strict about requiring shooters to join to enter after three  visits.

 

Not sure how common it is but with my home range you can't have a match and not allow range members to attend. It gets down to either drop IDPA or let range members shoot regardless of their IDPA status. 

 

Personally, I quit paying IDPA dues when they changed the rules and made my CCP gun (Springfield XD 4") 0.25" too tall to be legal. They don't give a hoot about my wallet - I don't stuff theirs. Disclaimer - current rules requiring the waste of ammo to be competitive and making some of the best/most fun range equipment (e.g. Texas Star) illegal also make me crazy so maybe I would have exited eventually either way. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by IHAVEGAS