New gun rules.

[Racinready300ex]

18 minutes ago, RileyBowman said:

 

It's hilarious to me that AIWB isn't legal in IDPA. This precludes every gun I carry because I carry them all AIWB.

 

So what I'm reading here is your gun is legal but your holster isn't which is different than what you said. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, RileyBowman said:

 

 

And how many of them are still running LOK Lights after the craze to buy them? (Very few that I've seen.)

 

How many of them realized the juice wasn't worth the squeeze? (Most of them. Dang that front-end heavy pistol becomes more challenging to transition with!)

 

How many top competitors at the recent Nationals were running LOK Lights? (None that I saw, but there could have been a couple since I didn't see everybody shoot.)

 

How many were running actual WMLs? (A few including one on my squad.)

 

What was their purpose for running them? (Not because they thought it would give them an advantage on unplanned low-light stages, I guarantee that! The one guy I asked about it, he just said, "It's setup the same way as it is as my carry gun." What holster was he using? An OWB PHLster Floodlight, a common WML compatible holster with a AIWB counterpart that many use for EDC. And this was at a NATIONALS! I was intrigued even as a guy that carries daily with a Streamlight TLR-1HL in a Floodlight AIWB.)

The fact that so many still view this as a competitive advantage type issue is funny to me. Look at what the top guys are winning with. I say if a gun meets weight, it meets weight. I couldn't care less what aftermarket light or frame weight you have on there as long as it meets weight. 

Nils is still extremely competitive with a mostly stock Canik that weighs nothing compared to the X5 Legions and CZs he competes against.

 

None of the USPSA stuff really matters to IDPA. Why? Because USPSA doesn't do low light stages (at least on intentionally). IDPA does. And apparently @Thomas H's club does dark stages in USPSA, unless he's full of it.

 

Are you willing to make the case that a WML would not be a advantage in a zero light stage against guys running hand held lights? If you'll make that case you're a idiot. Something tells me you know in the dark a WML is a game changer. My whole point to was that because IDPA does stages in the dark to allow a WML will require every shooter to have one if they want to compete.

[RileyBowman]

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

So what I'm reading here is your gun is legal but your holster isn't which is different than what you said. 

 

 

No, I meant what I said although I was being somewhat silly with that statement. Perhaps an emoji would have been appropriate.  

 

FWIW...I carry daily a comped P320 with optic and WML. So it's not legal in IDPA ever, and is only legal in Open division in USPSA. But my competition pistol is exactly the same lower (Grayguns TXG grip module) just with a standard X5 Carry Optics upper. I also do not run a WML in USPSA. However, I do have plans to do some local matches next year from AIWB with my actual carry setup.
 

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

None of the USPSA stuff really matters to IDPA. Why? Because USPSA doesn't do low light stages (at least on intentionally). IDPA does. And apparently @Thomas H's club does dark stages in USPSA, unless he's full of it.

 

There are absolutely low-light USPSA matches out there. Plenty examples of them on YouTube. And more of them now that WMLs are legal equipment. GlockStore's indoor Nashville range is doing a low-light match later this week, if I recall.

 

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

Are you willing to make the case that a WML would not be a advantage in a zero light stage against guys running hand held lights? If you'll make that case you're a idiot. Something tells me you know in the dark a WML is a game changer. My whole point to was that because IDPA does stages in the dark to allow a WML will require every shooter to have one if they want to compete.

 

I suspect those competitors that are showing up to those matches are doing so with WMLs. Because why wouldn't they? But these are specialty matches and not regular monthly club match occurrences. So if you don't have a WML or the ability to run one, you don't have to show up to the match. 

 

As for IDPA matches where this is more of a thing, if you wanted everybody to be able to participate AND maintain competitive equity, WSBs could easily be adjusted to require the use of a handheld light. We've already been over that in this thread. Competitors with WMLs could still participate but still use a handheld light like everybody else. 

 

[matteekay]

24 minutes ago, RileyBowman said:

IDPA won't budge and create a place for MODERN concealed carriers to show up and compete without changing their gear.

 

This is the heart of the issue for me (I try to avoid truly pointless internet arguments). I want to welcome new shooters to my matches with as little friction as possible and I'm seeing more and more new shooters with lights. I don't run low-light stages, nor does any state, regional, or national match*, so having shooters remove WML's and buying new holsters is a bigger lift than simply writing they can't be used in the WSB for the rare low-light stage. I'm fine with shifting additional responsibilities to match directors if it means growing the sport.

 

*That I know of. I think it's been five years since the last Indoor Nats; kinda hoping it comes back because I'd totally go

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, RileyBowman said:

 

No, I meant what I said although I was being somewhat silly with that statement. Perhaps an emoji would have been appropriate.  

 

FWIW...I carry daily a comped P320 with optic and WML. So it's not legal in IDPA ever, and is only legal in Open division in USPSA. But my competition pistol is exactly the same lower (Grayguns TXG grip module) just with a standard X5 Carry Optics upper. I also do not run a WML in USPSA. However, I do have plans to do some local matches next year from AIWB with my actual carry setup.
 

 

There are absolutely low-light USPSA matches out there. Plenty examples of them on YouTube. And more of them now that WMLs are legal equipment. GlockStore's indoor Nashville range is doing a low-light match later this week, if I recall.

 

 

I suspect those competitors that are showing up to those matches are doing so with WMLs. Because why wouldn't they? But these are specialty matches and not regular monthly club match occurrences. So if you don't have a WML or the ability to run one, you don't have to show up to the match. 

 

As for IDPA matches where this is more of a thing, if you wanted everybody to be able to participate AND maintain competitive equity, WSBs could easily be adjusted to require the use of a handheld light. We've already been over that in this thread. Competitors with WMLs could still participate but still use a handheld light like everybody else. 

 

 

 

You laugh because you can't use you're carry gear, and then make a serious case to allow a light on your gun that you can't use. I see the logic. 

 

 

[RileyBowman]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

You laugh because you can't use you're carry gear, and then make a serious case to allow a light on your gun that you can't use. I see the logic. 

 

 

 

Not sure I follow what you're getting at...

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

This is the heart of the issue for me (I try to avoid truly pointless internet arguments). I want to welcome new shooters to my matches with as little friction as possible and I'm seeing more and more new shooters with lights. I don't run low-light stages, nor does any state, regional, or national match*, so having shooters remove WML's and buying new holsters is a bigger lift than simply writing they can't be used in the WSB for the rare low-light stage. I'm fine with shifting additional responsibilities to match directors if it means growing the sport.

 

*That I know of. I think it's been five years since the last Indoor Nats; kinda hoping it comes back because I'd totally go

 

Does you're club not offer anything in the way of NFC etc?

 

The club here will let you run basically anything at a level 1 as long as you're holster and mag pouches are where they're supposed to be. And they're a little flexible on that too. I don't think AIWB would fly, and I don't blame them for not allowing considering Joyce's reaction to that. 

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, RileyBowman said:

 

Not sure I follow what you're getting at...

 

Not surprised. 

[matteekay]

14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Does you're club not offer anything in the way of NFC etc?

 

Of course we do, but no one wants to shoot in the "I'm only here for the lulz" division*. The case I'm making is that a simple rule change (that's in-line with IDPA's founding principles, as described by IDPA on their own website) would mean that a growing section of our base wouldn't be forced into NFC when using literal carry gear. 

 

 

*Revolver excluded. Sure, it's lonely, but it's the only thing I know how to do. 

[RileyBowman]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Not surprised. 

I mean, by "gun you can't use" if you're referring to my comped EDC gun...well, sure. But I can swap over to a Carry Optics legal upper (for IDPA) and I can do the same thing to use it in CO in USPSA, or run my actual carry gun with the comp in Open div.

My whole point is I see no problem with WMLs and AIWB holster setups being allowed to permit the greatest number of options for people to compete with their actual carry gear. Is that not a good thing? Especially when considering the bigger picture? Geez, IPSC was originally founded with one of the purposes being to test equipment and techniques that could benefit "practical shooters" of all kinds. IDPA was founded with the purpose of providing a competitive shooting discipline for "practical" equipment as well. 

People that want to compete with their actual carry gear should not only be welcome to do so, but they should be encouraged.
 

[Jim Watson]

16 hours ago, RileyBowman said:

People that want to compete with their actual carry gear should not only be welcome to do so, but they should be encouraged.

 

What do we do, make them sign an affidavit?  As said, equipment availability and preference have mutated a lot since the rules were written and revisions are more towards easy administration than tacticality.   

 

I saw this early on, there was A Guy taking advantage of the Duty Gear provision.  He claimed that the mishmash of foreign surplus he was wearing was his official equipment for the East Podunk SWAT.  They let him slide, he was not a very good shooter anyhow.  

 

AIWB carry is the current fashion; looks more like Belly Button IWB to me; and it gets you into the same situation as cross draw holsters in CAS.

 

SASS has a 170 degree rule, so if you are even close to 180 you are well over the line.  A lot of shooters wear one revolver straight draw and one cross draw but well towards the front for successive shooting with the strong hand.  They are SUPPOSED to turn so that the cross draw gun does not come out behind the 170 deg.  What you mostly get is a slight twist and little wiggle of the butt that seems to satisfy the RO.  I was sure to stand on the far side of this procedure.

 

Similarly, I have been swept by a USPSA BBIWB from a starting position at 45 deg off the line of fire.  The RO either did not notice or did not care and definitely did not  like it when I said so.  Not a usual start but not never, either.  I spent the rest of that match well to the back side of his draw.

 

I can visualize a specific AIWB starting position to keep the muzzle downrange rather than across the range but I doubt IDPA is interested and the wearers don't think they have a problem.  

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jim Watson

[RGinIdaho]

Always wanted to run the 40 cal, bushing barreled, Eagle 5.0 in ESP with 180gr minor loads. The old bull, heavy or coned language in the rule always made its use unclear. 
 

It sounds like an option now…

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Jim Watson said:

Similarly, I have been swept by a USPSA BBIWB from a starting position at 45 deg off the line of fire.  The RO either did not notice or did not care and definitely did not  like it when I said so.  Not a usual start but not never, either.  I spent the rest of that match well to the back side of his draw.

The r.o. was positioned to his gun hand side and the shooters body blocked the r.o.'s view of the gun?

 

Just guessing, happens at locals where you effectively only have one range official because the guy with the score pad is scoring ahead. 

[IHAVEGAS]

3 minutes ago, RGinIdaho said:

Always wanted to run the 40 cal, bushing barreled, Eagle 5.0 in ESP with 180gr minor loads. The old bull, heavy or coned language in the rule always made its use unclear. 
 

It sounds like an option now…

 

???? I've run the same gun in the same caliber at IDPA level 2 matches under the old rules, one of the guys that used to write for the IDPA magazine and who has won several matches shot an Eagle 9mm. 

[RGinIdaho]

14 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

???? I've run the same gun in the same caliber at IDPA level 2 matches under the old rules, one of the guys that used to write for the IDPA magazine and who has won several matches shot an Eagle 9mm. 

Locally, it was viewed as a cone style at a State match. Fortunately I had 

an Eagle, 9mm, bushing barrel as a backup knowing local interpretations always supersede…
Going to revisit the 40. I like it better than the 9mm.

[IHAVEGAS]

12 minutes ago, RGinIdaho said:

Going to revisit the 40. I like it better than the 9mm.

145 pf 180 grain 40 minor rocks! Enough oomph to drop poppers fast, pleasant to shoot, easy to control.

 

Confused about your 40 Eagle. I found a write up saying the gun was available either with bushing or cone but that write up did not say if bushing was available in all calibers, link below shows what appears to be 40 bushing. https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/pistols/sti-international-pistols/--sti-eagle-5-0--40s-w--pr39811-.cfm?gun_id=101069406

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by IHAVEGAS

[ATMester]

so what’s the weight limit for ESP now?

is the Stock2 ESP legal now?

 

[Jim Watson]

No change in weight.

Gentlemen's agreement is Make weight, fit box, no big magazine catch button.

[Jim Watson]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

The r.o. was positioned to his gun hand side and the shooters body blocked the r.o.'s view of the gun?

 

Just guessing, happens at locals where you effectively only have one range official

 

Could be.  But he didn't have to be disagreeable and dismissive when I brought it up from my unfortunate front row view of the muzzle. 

[Scooter]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

145 pf 180 grain 40 minor rocks! Enough oomph to drop poppers fast, pleasant to shoot, easy to control.

 

 

I used to shoot a Para P16 with 200gr 130pf. That was really soft shooting. It also weighed 42.8 ounces. 

 

It feels completely different than 9mm single stack. I do prefer minor 40 over 9mm. But 9mm is more convenient.

[SSGGlock]

23 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

This is the heart of the issue for me (I try to avoid truly pointless internet arguments). I want to welcome new shooters to my matches with as little friction as possible and I'm seeing more and more new shooters with lights. I don't run low-light stages, nor does any state, regional, or national match*, so having shooters remove WML's and buying new holsters is a bigger lift than simply writing they can't be used in the WSB for the rare low-light stage. I'm fine with shifting additional responsibilities to match directors if it means growing the sport.

 

*That I know of. I think it's been five years since the last Indoor Nats; kinda hoping it comes back because I'd totally go

Quite a few tier 4,3,2 matches here on the east coast run no light/ low light stages. At least two stages anyway.

[matteekay]

39 minutes ago, SSGGlock said:

Quite a few tier 4,3,2 matches here on the east coast run no light/ low light stages. At least two stages anyway.

 

Solution still works - mandate that a handheld light is used on low-light stages.

 

Your upper-level matches are indoors? Interesting.

[Racinready300ex]

38 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

Solution still works - mandate that a handheld light is used on low-light stages.

 

Your upper-level matches are indoors? Interesting.

 

There is one level 2 in the area that's 5 stages in the dark and 5 in the light. I think there is another one like that up north that I've never been too. And there are a couple with 2 dark stages. 

 

I foresee complaints about being forced to use a handheld light when you have a WML. I'd also assume you'd need to give out PE's or FP's to anyone who accidently turns on their WML during a stage run. Which will cause additional complaints. It certainly wont go as smoothly as imagined. Kind of like every other rule change that isn't thought out before it's cut loose. 

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

 

Could be.  But he didn't have to be disagreeable and dismissive when I brought it up from my unfortunate front row view of the muzzle. 

 

Agreed. 100% . 

 

Something I have done after a shooter told me I missed a 180 call was have him stand where I was standing (right side of right handed shooter shooting to his left) while I stood where the shooter was and then ask him if he could have made the call with certainty in real time while he and the shooter were both moving. Seems like sharing perspectives makes things smoother sometimes.  

[RileyBowman]

7 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

 

What do we do, make them sign an affidavit?  As said, equipment availability and preference have mutated a lot since the rules were written and revisions are more towards easy administration than tacticality.   

 

I saw this early on, there was A Guy taking advantage of the Duty Gear provision.  He claimed that the mishmash of foreign surplus he was wearing was his official equipment for the East Podunk SWAT.  They let him slide, he was not a very good shooter anyhow.  

 

AIWB carry is the current fashion; looks more like Belly Button IWB to me; and it gets you into the same situation as cross draw holsters in CAS.

 

SASS has a 170 degree rule, so if you are even close to 180 you are well over the line.  A lot of shooters wear one revolver straight draw and one cross draw but well towards the front for successive shooting with the strong hand.  They are SUPPOSED to turn so that the cross draw gun does not come out behind the 170 deg.  What you mostly get is a slight twist and little wiggle of the butt that seems to satisfy the RO.  I was sure to stand on the far side of this procedure.

 

Similarly, I have been swept by a USPSA BBIWB from a starting position at 45 deg off the line of fire.  The RO either did not notice or did not care and definitely did not  like it when I said so.  Not a usual start but not never, either.  I spent the rest of that match well to the back side of his draw.

 

I can visualize a specific AIWB starting position to keep the muzzle downrange rather than across the range but I doubt IDPA is interested and the wearers don't think they have a problem.  

 

Your understanding of AIWB, how it works, the drawstroke, etc. is flawed. The muzzle is not breaking the 180 (or close to) any differently than drawing from strongside OWB/IWB especially with cant.

[SSGGlock]

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

 

Solution still works - mandate that a handheld light is used on low-light stages.

 

Your upper-level matches are indoors? Interesting.

The whole match isn’t indoors, but they have no light indoor stages.

Virginia Indoor Regionals are half light and half no light, but that’s all indoors.

Live Free or Die had to 2 no light stages and they were difficult.

Virginia state had 3 no light stages.

Liberty had 2 no light stages.

Castle Pistol Classic had some no light stages.

 

There was some more, can’t recall.

Edited October 29, 2021 by SSGGlock