S2 no decocker

[Stafford]

Local match and shooter has a Shadow 2 that he's been shooting for a good while now. RO also shoots a Shadow 2 and they're friends and have squadded together many times. At make ready, they have a conversation. Shooter says, "this gun doesn't have a decocker". RO says you have to drop it all the way down. Shooter thought that you move the hammer to half-cock in the same manner as a decocker pistol. After being assured it had to be all the way down, he adjusted and shot the stage. However, he seemed genuinely surprised.

 

Here's the thing. He's been shooting this gun for at least a year, maybe much longer. And apparently he's been dropping it to half-cock and thought that was correct. And no RO's noticed it until recently. 

[belus]

Have to learn sometime.

[SouperMan]

Hah. Here’s a question for you:

 

If you are the RO, the shooter in question has shot 2 stages in that start condition. What does the RO do, if anything, about the previous stages? 

 

Ponder it, and read the NROI Blog Post here.

Edited October 24, 2021 by SouperMan
Adding link to NROI blog, poor grammar.

[SGT_Schultz]

13 hours ago, Stafford said:

Local match and shooter has a Shadow 2 that he's been shooting for a good while now. RO also shoots a Shadow 2 and they're friends and have squadded together many times. At make ready, they have a conversation. Shooter says, "this gun doesn't have a decocker". RO says you have to drop it all the way down. Shooter thought that you move the hammer to half-cock in the same manner as a decocker pistol. After being assured it had to be all the way down, he adjusted and shot the stage. However, he seemed genuinely surprised.

 

He should have been moved to Open division and then allowed to continue.  See Special Condition 1 of appendix D7 or D4 as appropriate to his division.

 

I bet that at least 90% of competitors don't actually know the rules as they pertain to their equipment and division.  They just go by what they've heard or been told at matches.

[SGT_Schultz]

10 hours ago, SouperMan said:

Hah. Here’s a question for you:

 

If you are the RO, the shooter in question has shot 2 stages in that start condition. What does the RO do, if anything, about the previous stages? 

 

Ponder it, and read the NROI Blog Post here.

 

Move the shooter to Open in PS with the appropriate power factor checked.

[Stafford]

There's no way to know if he shot previous stages at this match in half cocked. And he moved it to full lowered before shooting after it was noticed. Based on his reaction and statement, I'm guessing he's been shooting it in half cocked since he got it and it was never noticed. Instead of manually lowering the hammer all the way, he had been manually lowering it to a decocked position. Probably ran a decocker model prior to the Shadow 2.

[SGT_Schultz]

6 minutes ago, Stafford said:

There's no way to know if he shot previous stages at this match in half cocked. And he moved it to full lowered before shooting after it was noticed.

 

Doesn't matter.  His entire match will now be scored (including any completed stages) as him being in open division.

 

Also, moving the hammer all the way down after you get caught is irrelevant from a penalty point of view.  You can't "undo" a rule violation by fixing it after you commit it.

 

You do have to fix the firearm ready condition to comply with division requirements before an RO who knows what he's doing will let you start the course of fire.

Edited October 24, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[xrayfk05]

50 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Doesn't matter.  His entire match will now be scored (including any completed stages) as him being in open division.

 

Are you saying you will send him to open even if you don't know for sure how he shot the previous 2 stages?

Now that's jackass move.

 

If you know for a fact, yes, welcome to open.

[SGT_Schultz]

23 minutes ago, xrayfk05 said:

Are you saying you will send him to open even if you don't know for sure how he shot the previous 2 stages?

Now that's jackass move.

 

If you know for a fact, yes, welcome to open.

 

No, that is not what I said.  He should have been moved to open as soon as the RO found the pistol in the incorrect starting condition.

 

The point is that he gets moved to open as soon as he was discovered violating the firearm start condition regardless of what happened before.

 

The move to open affects scoring for the entire match, including stages already scored.

Edited October 24, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[wchangose]

The OP said "Local match" maybe just correct the shooter, tell him the rule and move on.  

[SGT_Schultz]

33 minutes ago, wchangose said:

The OP said "Local match" maybe just correct the shooter, tell him the rule and move on.  

I understand it's a local match.  Doesn't make a difference to me when I RO.

[GeneBray]

If the competitor admits he started one of more stages with the pistol in half cock when it should be fully lowered, then apply appropriate penalty.  If the competitor does not confirm he started incorrectly, then the RO should ensure the competitor's equipment is in the proper condition as start the shooter.

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

10 hours ago, GeneBray said:

If the competitor admits he started one of more stages with the pistol in half cock when it should be fully lowered, then apply appropriate penalty.  If the competitor does not confirm he started incorrectly, then the RO should ensure the competitor's equipment is in the proper condition as start the shooter.

 

 

 

The only action needed to get a bump to open is to lower the hammer manually to half cock.  Starting the course of fire with the hammer at half cock is not a requirement for the penalty.

 

Special condition 1 of appendix D4 (SC 1/App D7 reads the same in this regard).  Emphasis mine

Quote

1. Only Double Action, Double Action/Single Action, and Safe Action/Striker Fired
handguns are allowed, and must be on the approved list. When in the ready conditions
as specified under 8.1, a gun with an external hammer must be hammer down. A
hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed
there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking)
or by activating the decocking lever if present. Manually decocking to the half-cocked
position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division.

 

 

[xrayfk05]

21 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

No, that is not what I said.  He should have been moved to open as soon as the RO found the pistol in the incorrect starting condition.

 

The point is that he gets moved to open as soon as he was discovered violating the firearm start condition regardless of what happened before.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying, found it hard to image.

And agreed with the move.

[jripper]

5 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The only action needed to get a bump to open is to lower the hammer manually to half cock.  Starting the course of fire with the hammer at half cock is not a requirement for the penalty.

 

Special condition 1 of appendix D4 (SC 1/App D7 reads the same in this regard).  Emphasis mine

 

 

I may be wrong, but if you look at special condition 2, same section if continues in saying that the gun must be fully decocked at the start signal.  I think these two condtions were meant to be used in conjunction with each other.  One does not specify when it is illegal.  I believe that just decocking to half cock, or even holstering after half cock, is not illegal and does not promote a bump to open unless at the start signal the gun is at half cock.  

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by jripper

[rowdyb]

The people who holster a shadow 2 with no lowering of hammer or activating the safety blow me away. I've seen this too much lately from people at their first match.

[SGT_Schultz]

32 minutes ago, jripper said:

I may be wrong, but if you look at special condition 2, same section if continues in saying that the gun must be fully decocked at the start signal.  I think these two condtions were meant to be used in conjunction with each other.  One does not specify when it is illegal.  I believe that just decocking to half cock, or even holstering after half cock, is not illegal and does not promote a bump to open unless at the start signal the gun is at half cock.  

 

 

The special condition that you refer to exists only in the carry optics appendix.  It doesn't exist in the production appendix.

 

All it says is that the pistol must comply with the correct firearm start condition.  Which is redundant information from chapter 8.

 

Special condition 1 does state a clear cause and effect relationship between manually decocking to a position that isn't all the way down and being moved to open division.  I highlighted that cause and effect in my quote.  In my view the timing is immediate: you go to open the instant you've finished lowering the hammer to anything other than the bottom.

 

At this point I'd be interested in hearing from other ROs on this.

Edited October 25, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[SGT_Schultz]

3 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

The people who holster a shadow 2 with no lowering of hammer or activating the safety blow me away. I've seen this too much lately from people at their first match.

 

The first condition (fully cocked and safety off) is a DQ.

 

The second instance is (hammer cocked and safety on) is just an incorrect start condition and I would inform the shooter as to why I'm not continuing with range commands.  Unlike the hammer manually lowered to any position besides fully down, trying to start cocked and locked in Production or CO isn't a bump to open.

[jripper]

31 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The first condition (fully cocked and safety off) is a DQ.

 

The second instance is (hammer cocked and safety on) is just an incorrect start condition and I would inform the shooter as to why I'm not continuing with range commands.  Unlike the hammer manually lowered to any position besides fully down, trying to start cocked and locked in Production or CO isn't a bump to open.

Agree.  I do see where 2. is only under carry optics but not production.  Not sure why, as the ready condition of the same for each division.  

[motosapiens]

41 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

I highlighted that cause and effect in my quote.  In my view the timing is immediate: you go to open the instant you've finished lowering the hammer to anything other than the bottom.

 

At this point I'd be interested in hearing from other ROs on this.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but as a CRO for 9 years now, I think your reasoning is faulty, and the thought process goes entirely against Troy's philosophy. It sounds like you are trying to lawyer up some words in order to screw people over. It seems pretty clear that the intent of the rules is to move someone to open only if they start the stage in an inappropriate ready condition. 

 

In my experience (both as a shadow shooter and very experienced RO) it is not all that unusual for a competitor to release the trigger a fraction early as they are lowering the hammer, and have the hammer accidentally stop at half-cock.  Noticing this, the shooter simply repeats the process more carefully and drops the hammer all the way. It sounds like you are trying to move someone to open for having to make a second attempt. That's dumb.

 

The question to think about it, is whether this half-cock situation is analogous to holstering a loaded SA gun with the safety off (instant dq), or whether it's analogous to a shooter coming to the line with a holster that is slightly out of compliance (or prior to this spring, with mags or gun located too far forward). Troy's guidance on that for several years now has been to have the shooter correct the problem and move on, and stop working overtime to try to penalize people. To me, treating it like the latter situation is more appropriate.

 

fwiw, there has been some discussion at a high level of changing the start position to half-cock even for guns without a decocker, for reasons of drop-safety. it wouldn't surprise me to that rule change in the next year. Then we can try to dq people for lowering the hammer all the way down so it is resting on the firing pin, lol.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by motosapiens

[SGT_Schultz]

21 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but as a CRO for 9 years now, I think your reasoning is faulty, and the thought process goes entirely against Troy's philosophy. It sounds like you are trying to lawyer up some words in order to screw people over. It seems pretty clear that the intent of the rules is to move someone to open only if they start the stage in an inappropriate ready condition. 

 

In my experience (both as a shadow shooter and very experienced RO) it is not all that unusual for a competitor to release the trigger a fraction early as they are lowering the hammer, and have the hammer accidentally stop at half-cock.  Noticing this, the shooter simply repeats the process more carefully and drops the hammer all the way. It sounds like you are trying to move someone to open for having to make a second attempt. That's dumb.

 

The question to think about it, is whether this half-cock situation is analogous to holstering a loaded SA gun with the safety off (instant dq), or whether it's analogous to a shooter coming to the line with a holster that is slightly out of compliance (or prior to this spring, with mags or gun located too far forward). Troy's guidance on that for several years now has been to have the shooter correct the problem and move on, and stop working overtime to try to penalize people. To me, treating it like the latter situation is more appropriate.

 

fwiw, there has been some discussion at a high level of changing the start position to half-cock even for guns without a decocker, for reasons of drop-safety. it wouldn't surprise me to that rule change in the next year. Then we can try to dq people for lowering the hammer all the way down so it is resting on the firing pin, lol.

 

 

I apply rules as written.  Intent is something other, bush league, sports do.  If the literal interpretation is the wrong one then re-write it so the meaning is clear.

 

The first rule (don't be a dick) is all about how one behaves not how one applies the rules as written. 

[jripper]

43 minutes ago, jripper said:

Agree.  I do see where 2. is only under carry optics but not production.  Not sure why, as the ready condition of the same for each division.  

I need to correct myself. I agree with holster a cocked hammer without a safety is a DQ.  So when the competitor decocks to half cock, at which point in the make ready sequence do you move him to open?

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

The people who holster a shadow 2 with no lowering of hammer or activating the safety blow me away. 

 

That is an easy dq call for me, flat out dangerous. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

I apply rules as written.  Intent is something other, bush league, sports do.  If the literal interpretation is the wrong one then re-write it so the meaning is clear.

 

 

 

That is how my r.o. instructor told the class to do it, and the only path I can see to consistency. Would like to see many of the NROI survey write ups end with "and this is what we changed to eliminate the confusion" . 

[IHAVEGAS]

44 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

and the thought process goes entirely against Troy's philosophy.

 

Serious question, why should anybody care about somebody else's philosophy? If it ain't writ it don't mean s#!t  (should have been a poet). 

[motosapiens]

21 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

I apply rules as written.  Intent is something other, bush league, sports do. 

Sadly, that attitude is not entirely unheard-of. The problem with it is that rules are written by humans and sometimes conflict with each other, or with sportsmanship, or common sense. And of course we know we have lawyers because people can't agree on the exact meaning of rules and laws 'as written'. In these situation, it makes more sense to me to clarify with a more senior official. I suggest you do that with this manual decocking question, and then post Troy's response. It would save everyone some time and effort.

 

6.2.5.1

However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of

fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,