S2 no decocker

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Serious question, why should anybody care about somebody else's philosophy? If it ain't writ it don't mean s#!t  (should have been a poet). 

I don't know how many major matches you have worked, but that is not the way the world works. Just like the legal world, we have written rules, and we also have interpretations and precedents when there is insufficient clarity in that written rule to satisfy everyone.

 

We should be officiating every match just like nationals, not based on our own individual interpretation of the meaning of 1 particular sentence.

Edited October 25, 2021 by motosapiens

[jripper]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Sadly, that attitude is not entirely unheard-of. The problem with it is that rules are written by humans and sometimes conflict with each other, or with sportsmanship, or common sense. And of course we know we have lawyers because people can't agree on the exact meaning of rules and laws 'as written'. In these situation, it makes more sense to me to clarify with a more senior official. I suggest you do that with this manual decocking question, and then post Troy's response. It would save everyone some time and effort.

 

6.2.5.1

However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of

fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,

So,  during course of fire refers to after the start signal.  Correct?

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, jripper said:

So,  during course of fire refers to after the start signal.  Correct?

lol, that depends. Technically the COF starts with 'make ready', but it's not always handled exactly that way. For example, holsters being out of position.

 

when in doubt, ask your local RMI. I personally have never seen this situation at a major match, so it seems like a good thing to clarify with Troy.

Edited October 25, 2021 by motosapiens

[IHAVEGAS]

25 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I don't know how many major matches you have worked, but that is not the way the world works. Just like the legal world, we have written rules, and we also have interpretations and precedents when there is insufficient clarity in that written rule to satisfy everyone.

 

We should be officiating every match just like nationals, not based on our own individual interpretation of the meaning of 1 particular sentence.

It is not the way USPSA works sometimes. As a lifelong engineer who has dealt with much more complicated situations than a shooting match and much thicker "rule books" my observation is that much of the rules grief is self induced due to an unclear book that no one is attempting to continuously improve. 

 

Your legal example is valid, when things are left unclear debate is created. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by IHAVEGAS

[SGT_Schultz]

58 minutes ago, jripper said:

So,  during course of fire refers to after the start signal.  Correct?

No, the rules say that course of fire begins when the RO says make ready despite the personal opinions of others.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

6.2.5.1

However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of

fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,

 

That's right, so if a shooter manually decocks to some position other than hammer fully down he gets bumped to open because he started the course of fire in violation of his division firearm ready condition.  Let's remember that despite your opinion the course of fire starts when the RO issues the make ready command and ends when the RO states range is clear.

 

It can't be any more clear despite your personal opinion and an NROI explanation is not needed.

 

I would have thought a CRO would understand all of that.

Edited October 25, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[motosapiens]

35 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

  Let's remember that despite your opinion the course of fire starts when the RO issues the make ready command and ends when the RO states range is clear.

 

not sure why you said that. I specifically stated that the COF starts at make ready. Perhaps you didn't read or understand my post.

 

Quote

 

It can't be any more clear despite your personal opinion and an NROI explanation is not needed.

 

Sounds like you already know everything there is to know about officiating, and can't learn any more. That's generally a sign of a poor and inexperienced RO. Luckily, good RO's generally don't have that attitude. There are lots of examples of things that can appear one way at first glance, but end up being a different way due to interpretation or precedent. That's why we have RO training seminars instead of just giving you the rulebook and letting you decide what you think it means.

 

Aren't you the same guy that said he would make up a dq for someone if they were wearing a shirt with a political message you didn't like?

Edited October 25, 2021 by motosapiens

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

Sounds like you already know everything there is to know about officiating, and can't learn any more. That's generally a sign of a poor and inexperienced RO. Luckily, good RO's generally don't have that attitude. There are lots of examples of things that can appear one way at first glance, but end up being a different way due to interpretation or precedent. That's why we have RO training seminars instead of just giving you the rulebook and letting you decide what you think it means.

 

 

I'm talking about a very specific point. 

 

But thanks for trying to turn this into a strawman.  You should try harder next time.

[rowdyb]

5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

t is an easy dq call for me

And that's what i do.

[slavex]

Until the start signal the shooter is free to holster and unholster his gun as he sees fit, that means he can holster at half cock, unholster, do something else, etc etc and holster again. Until the beep, his gun condition, other than being holstered hammer back and no safety on, is meaningless. 

[jripper]

7 hours ago, slavex said:

Until the start signal the shooter is free to holster and unholster his gun as he sees fit, that means he can holster at half cock, unholster, do something else, etc etc and holster again. Until the beep, his gun condition, other than being holstered hammer back and no safety on, is meaningless. 

100 % agree.  I asked at which point would he move a shooter to open, but did not get an answer, In my opinion, it would only happen after the start signal.  However, it's a moot point as I wouldn't start a shooter with the hammer at half cock.  I would advise him to fully decock the gun.  There is no need to let him start and then move him to open.  It's not a safety issue.  It would be no different than a shooter in the wrong start position.  I would not start him until he took the proper start position. 

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, jripper said:

I wouldn't start a shooter with the hammer at half cock.  I would advise him to fully decock the gun. 

 

I'd see that as coaching and if the competitor was unhappy with his move to open I would point him to the 8.1 example of starting with an empty chamber due to a mental error "the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the firearm". 

If it was a local match and nobody really cared about scores then I can't see where it would make much difference either way. When people do care about scores and placements then you can't give one person a break without hurting the people they are competing with, and you can get into a righteous mess negotiating between the break you gave one person and the different break you didn't give another. 

 

Just opinion. 

[wchangose]

Wow, quite a thread.  Some of you guys would be happier in IDPA.

[GeneBray]

17 hours ago, slavex said:

Until the start signal the shooter is free to holster and unholster his gun as he sees fit, that means he can holster at half cock, unholster, do something else, etc etc and holster again. Until the beep, his gun condition, other than being holstered hammer back and no safety on, is meaningless. 

The quote above is incorrect if the competitor is shooting USPSA matches under the USPSA Competition Rules.  The CoF begins at the "Make Ready" command.  USPSA Competition Rules 8.2.5 says, "A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1." (emphasis added) {These two sentences are poorly worded IMO.  The first sentence is clear in its meaning.  Again IMO, the 2nd sentence is unclear since it can be interpreted as reholstering anytime after the "Make Ready" or after the start signal.  However, 8.1.2.5 below states without qualification as to when, if the firearm is loaded and holstered the safety must be on unless the safety cannot be applied if the hammer is down.} The ready condition for selective fire pistol (SA/DA firearms) is "...chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D)."  Additionally, 8.1.2.5 says, "...the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the firearm (e.g. the thumb safety on a 1911 type handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter. This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the Written Stage Briefing (e.g. table start, in a drawer, etc.), in order to follow 10.5.11. If the primary (thumb) safety cannot be applied when the hammer is down, it is not required when the gun is in that condition."  (emphasis added).

 

There are two rewordings of the 1st sentence in red to clarify the meaning by removing the word "However" and replacing with one of the following:  1) After the start signal, a competitor may re-hoslter provided....., or 2) After the "Make Ready", a competitor may reholster provided.... .  Or, change the wording in 8.1.2.5 (the 2nd red highlighted sentence to read,  1) This safety must be on anytime the firearm is loaded in the holster....., or 2) After the start signal, this safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster...

[slavex]

as I said, other than hammer back and no safety on, it doesn't matter until the beep. Holstering with the hammer fully cocked and no safeties on is a DQ, but half cock is not considered fully cocked. Until the start signal the competitor hasn't violated divisional requirements. You as a the RO don't know if he's going to draw the gun again, swap mags, top up a mag, fully decock etc. And the competitor is free to do so after the Make Ready command right up to the start signal. 

[GeneBray]

16 hours ago, slavex said:

as I said, other than hammer back and no safety on, it doesn't matter until the beep. Holstering with the hammer fully cocked and no safeties on is a DQ, but half cock is not considered fully cocked. Until the start signal the competitor hasn't violated divisional requirements. You as a the RO don't know if he's going to draw the gun again, swap mags, top up a mag, fully decock etc. And the competitor is free to do so after the Make Ready command right up to the start signal. 

If you holster a loaded firearm and the firearm is not in the ready condition for the division, it is a DQ.  There is no mention in the rule stating so that the hand must be removed from the firearm.

[slavex]

4 hours ago, GeneBray said:

If you holster a loaded firearm and the firearm is not in the ready condition for the division, it is a DQ.  There is no mention in the rule stating so that the hand must be removed from the firearm.

Uh, what are you talking about? You dq people for not having the gun in the appropriate condition for a specific division? 

[SGT_Schultz]

6 hours ago, GeneBray said:

If you holster a loaded firearm and the firearm is not in the ready condition for the division, it is a DQ.

 

Incorrect.  Starting a SA pistol with the hammer down when it's supposed to be cocked isn't a DQ.  Neither is starting any handgun with an empty chamber when it's supposed to be loaded.  Neither is starting a selective action pistol cocked and locked in divisions where it's supposed to start hammer down.  Neither is starting a selective action pistol with the hammer at half cock.

 

If I'm wrong, please help me learn by citing the appropriate sections from the USPSA rulebook.

Edited October 28, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[IHAVEGAS]

5 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Neither is starting a selective action pistol with the hammer at half cock.

 

That one is kind of interesting. I don't see anything in the 8.1 section rules or the definitions that specifies whether half cocked is treated as cocked or as hammer down so I suppose somebody could see this as a dq under 10.5.11.2 . 

For production guns appendix D4 "special conditions 1" sez "Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to open division" so I reckon that is that.

For limited there is not any special condition under D2/D3 so I guess the assumption you would make is to treat them the same as production guns - no dq, welcome to open. 

 

 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

That one is kind of interesting. I don't see anything in the 8.1 section rules or the definitions that specifies whether half cocked is treated as cocked or as hammer down so I suppose somebody could see this as a dq under 10.5.11.2 . 

For production guns appendix D4 "special conditions 1" sez "Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to open division" so I reckon that is that.

For limited there is not any special condition under D2/D3 so I guess the assumption you would make is to treat them the same as production guns - no dq, welcome to open. 

 

 

half-cocked is clearly not cocked. (just like one foot out and one foot in is clearly not 'out', but we have all agreed to pretend on that one).

 

also if someone starts a limited gun at half-cock (or fully down), there would certainly not be any reason to move them to open. You might be able to argue that the RO shouldn't start them, but I think that would be pretty silly. The rules do state specifically that the RO shouldn't say anything to you if you forget to load your firearm, and if you do that, there's a very good chance the hammer is not cocked either.

Edited October 28, 2021 by motosapiens

[IHAVEGAS]

17 hours ago, motosapiens said:

half-cocked is clearly not cocked. (just like one foot out and one foot in is clearly not 'out', but we have all agreed to pretend on that one).

 

And it is clearly not hammer down. 

17 hours ago, motosapiens said:

also if someone starts a limited gun at half-cock (or fully down), there would certainly not be any reason to move them to open.

As I understand it the move to open for a production gun is based upon the ready condition not being as specified in section 8.1.2 . If that is the basis of the move I don't see anything in the rules that would mean a limited gun is not subject to the same criteria when not in one of the described ready conditions. EDIT; Since it specifically states (production gun special conditions 1) the move to open in 1 case - but says nothing along those lines in the other - I think you are correct. 

 

On 10/28/2021 at 4:20 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

If I'm wrong, please help me learn by citing the appropriate sections from the USPSA rulebook.

Edited October 29, 2021 by IHAVEGAS

[SGT_Schultz]

9 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

As I understand it the move to open for a production gun is based upon the ready condition not being as specified in section 8.1.2 . If that is the basis of the move I don't see anything in the rules that would mean a limited gun is not subject to the same criteria when not in one of the described ready conditions. EDIT; Since it specifically states (production gun special conditions 1) the move to open in 1 case - but says nothing along those lines in the other - I think you are correct. 

 

 

I can't send a limited shooter who starts with a selective action pistol at half cock to open because there is no rule that I can cite that allows me to do that.

 

You can't construe a rule out of similar circumstances in a different division.

[yigal]

What cruelty.   DQ,   and  Open div. 

 Eventually the competitor was executed?

[IHAVEGAS]

15 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

I can't send a limited shooter who starts with a selective action pistol at half cock to open because there is no rule that I can cite that allows me to do that.

 

You can't construe a rule out of similar circumstances in a different division.

I don't disagree.

It took a while to get my head around why I can do the same thing with the same gun but it is only a penalty if I am using the gun for production. Since the production ruling is part of Appendix D4 rather than the main body of the rule book and spelled out very clearly, that explains that. 

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, yigal said:

What cruelty.   DQ,   and  Open div. 

 Eventually the competitor was executed?

 

Ideally, eventually the competitor will get the right call, or no call.

I find discussions of this stuff, including devil's advocate questions or commentary, to be instructive.