S2 no decocker

[slavex]

Until the start signal you can't do anything to the competitor. Up until then they are free to discover on their own that they aren't compliant, and fix it. Just as they can suddenly remember to insert a mag after forgetting to put one in. Happens all the time. The only time (of the examples given in this thread) that something could be done before the start signal is if they holster fully cocked with no safety applied, and that's it. DQ obviously. 

[Shooter212]

I think we are missing a good point here. The half cock is there for a reason and decockers put it there on purpose. If a gun was on half cock a dropped gun couldn’t accidentally discharge when hitting the ground. Could have saved that guy who dropped his shadow 2. Maybe the rules should change. Just an idea don’t beat me done to hard I am sure there is some downside I am not thinking of. 

[SGT_Schultz]

On 10/31/2021 at 5:16 AM, slavex said:

Until the start signal you can't do anything to the competitor. Up until then they are free to discover on their own that they aren't compliant, and fix it. Just as they can suddenly remember to insert a mag after forgetting to put one in. Happens all the time. The only time (of the examples given in this thread) that something could be done before the start signal is if they holster fully cocked with no safety applied, and that's it. DQ obviously. 

 

You're still wrong at least when it comes to USPSA. 

 

The course of fire begins at the Make Ready command.

 

 There are certain things that you cannot do during the CoF without a penalty.  One of those actions that will incur a penalty is lowering the hammer of a selective action DA/SA pistol to any position except all the way down when competing in P or CO.  The penalty is a bump to open.

 

The start signal, in this particular case, is meaningless.  

 

 

[yigal]

11 hours ago, Shooter212 said:

I think we are missing a good point here. The half cock is there for a reason and decockers put it there on purpose. If a gun was on half cock a dropped gun couldn’t accidentally discharge when hitting the ground. Could have saved that guy who dropped his shadow 2. Maybe the rules should change. Just an idea don’t beat me done to hard I am sure there is some downside I am not thinking of. 

for this purpose it was designed in double action guns. SAFETY.

in earlier CZ 75 models there is no half cock notch in the hammer.

[TimHawkins]

I don't understand why the rules don't allow for you to start with the hammer back and safety engaged. Many instructors teach that lowering the hammer is an ad waiting to happen and when lowering the hammer all the way down you risk a discharge if the gun is dropped.

 From a safety standpoint I think they need to look at changing this rule. If the firearm was designed to use a manual safety then that is the safest way to carry and use the weapon.

  I don't see any advantage for the shooter having to disengage the safety and it would be safer for everyone.

 Tim

 

[SGT_Schultz]

6 minutes ago, TimHawkins said:

I don't understand why the rules don't allow for you to start with the hammer back and safety engaged. Many instructors teach that lowering the hammer is an ad waiting to happen and when lowering the hammer all the way down you risk a discharge if the gun is dropped.

 From a safety standpoint I think they need to look at changing this rule. If the firearm was designed to use a manual safety then that is the safest way to carry and use the weapon.

  I don't see any advantage for the shooter having to disengage the safety and it would be safer for everyone.

 Tim

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The pistols that we're talking about here are designed to be carried either cocked and locked or hammer down equally safely.  Your safety argument doesn't apply.

 

Whoever teaches that manually lowering the hammer is an AD waiting to happen is someone I wouldn't listen to because they clearly don't know how to do it safely. 

 

The statement that hammer down carry will lead to an AD on a dropped pistol MIGHT be true if a gun has no firing pin block AND its firing pin and/or firing pin spring are not OEM.  It's definitely horses#!t if the pistol in question has a firing pin block.

 

Production division was created, in part, to give non SAO pistols a division where they would not be at a disadvantage against SAO pistols.  Sice carry optics was an outgrow of production, same applies.  There will be massive opposition to allowing any pistol to start in single action in either division.

Edited November 16, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, TimHawkins said:

I don't understand why the rules don't allow for you to start with the hammer back and safety engaged.

 

 

The intent was to put striker fired guns on equal footing with d.a./s.a. guns. Now that you can get some very low weight triggers in striker guns I am not sure that the rule is needed. 

4 hours ago, TimHawkins said:

. Many instructors teach that lowering the hammer is an ad waiting to happen and when lowering the hammer all the way down you risk a discharge if the gun is dropped.

 From a safety standpoint I think they need to look at changing this rule. If the firearm was designed to use a manual safety then that is the safest way to carry and use the weapon.

 

 

From a safety standpoint I have never seen a lowered hammer gun (revolver or production gun) a.d. during the holstering, or as it is coming out of the holster, or as a shooter was establishing their two handed grip. I have seen 1 or more very scary a.d.'s with hammer back/safety on start (intended) in each of the three scenarios. I have also dq'd 3 people for not putting the safety on before holstering their single action gun (2 were used to striker guns with no thumb safety). As noted elsewhere, if you read the manuals of the d.a./s.a. guns you will typically read that the guns were designed to provide two safe options for carry. I agree that when lowering the hammer the shooter needs to be fully attentive, the finger roll out technique seems the most mistake proof to me. 

 

4 hours ago, TimHawkins said:

 

  I don't see any advantage for the shooter having to disengage the safety and it would be safer for everyone.

 Tim

 

As noted above, my experience is that it is less safe for everyone. That is not to say that either is unsafe but a revolver style start I think is the gold standard. 

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

As noted elsewhere, if you read the manuals of the d.a./s.a. guns you will typically read that the guns were designed to provide two safe options for carry.

 

Actually, CZ and Tanfoglio are the only two companies that make DA/SA pistols without decockers.  They also make DA/SA pistols with decockers.  Pretty much everyone else who makes DA/SA pistols with a safety integrates it with the decocker, so the hammer decocks when you put the lever on safe and it cannot be carried cocked and locked.  Beretta 92F is the most common of the type.

 

I'm ignoring all the turkish clones out there.

[jripper]

On 11/15/2021 at 6:17 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

 

You're still wrong at least when it comes to USPSA. 

 

The course of fire begins at the Make Ready command.

 

 There are certain things that you cannot do during the CoF without a penalty.  One of those actions that will incur a penalty is lowering the hammer of a selective action DA/SA pistol to any position except all the way down when competing in P or CO.  The penalty is a bump to open.

 

The start signal, in this particular case, is meaningless.  

 

 

So you are saying, if I lower my hammer on my DA auto to make ready, I stop it too soon, and go to half cock, and immediately realize it and lower it the rest of the way I go to open because for that split second it stopped at half cock?  

 

[jripper]

30 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Actually, CZ and Tanfoglio are the only two companies that make DA/SA pistols without decockers.  They also make DA/SA pistols with decockers.  Pretty much everyone else who makes DA/SA pistols with a safety integrates it with the decocker, so the hammer decocks when you put the lever on safe and it cannot be carried cocked and locked.  Beretta 92F is the most common of the type.

 

I'm ignoring all the turkish clones out there.

Grand Power makes a DA with no decocker, and I believe the Beretta 92X does not have one.  

[SGT_Schultz]

56 minutes ago, jripper said:

So you are saying, if I lower my hammer on my DA auto to make ready, I stop it too soon, and go to half cock, and immediately realize it and lower it the rest of the way I go to open because for that split second it stopped at half cock?  

 

 

I'm not saying that.  The rulebook says that.

[SGT_Schultz]

52 minutes ago, jripper said:

Grand Power makes a DA with no decocker, and I believe the Beretta 92X does not have one.  

 

As I said, I didn't care to list all the oddball exceptions.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Actually, CZ and Tanfoglio are the only two companies that make DA/SA pistols without decockers.

 

Are you saying that guns with decockers are less safe carried with the hammer full down than guns without? Otherwise I don't understand your comment.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Are you saying that guns with decockers are less safe carried with the hammer full down than guns without? Otherwise I don't understand your comment.

 

That isn't what I'm saying at all and not sure how that got construed so.

 

DA/SA guns without decockers are the minority and only two companies still make them in any significant numbers.

[slavex]

On 11/15/2021 at 4:17 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

 

You're still wrong at least when it comes to USPSA. 

 

The course of fire begins at the Make Ready command.

 

 There are certain things that you cannot do during the CoF without a penalty.  One of those actions that will incur a penalty is lowering the hammer of a selective action DA/SA pistol to any position except all the way down when competing in P or CO.  The penalty is a bump to open.

 

The start signal, in this particular case, is meaningless.  

 

 

Strangely you are correct, but it's not because of the course of fire beginning at Make Ready, it's because there is literally this statement under "special conditions" in Production Div and Carry Optics; "Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division"

 

Absolutely bizarre rule dude. 

[SGT_Schultz]

6 hours ago, slavex said:

Strangely you are correct, but it's not because of the course of fire beginning at Make Ready, it's because there is literally this statement under "special conditions" in Production Div and Carry Optics; "Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division"

 

Absolutely bizarre rule dude. 

 

There's nothing strange about a range officer striving to know the rules to make a correct call.

 

And yes, the official start of the course of fire matters very much.  The starting condition for the pistols we're discussing here is defined in 8.1.2.3 and that starting condition applies during the course of fire, which begins at the make ready command. 

 

Personally I disagree with that special condition but my likes and dislikes don't enter into this.

Edited November 17, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[slavex]

@SGT_Schultzsorry, didn't mean strange regarding you, meant strange regarding the rule. I hadn't expected to find it in that section. 

[IHAVEGAS]

11 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

That isn't what I'm saying at all and not sure how that got construed so.

 

Was trying to understand why you pivoted the conversation away from from means of safe carry (me) to whether or not guns had decockers (your reply). Seems very apples and oranges unless you see a relationship between the two that is not clear to me. 

[jripper]

10 hours ago, slavex said:

Strangely you are correct, but it's not because of the course of fire beginning at Make Ready, it's because there is literally this statement under "special conditions" in Production Div and Carry Optics; "Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division"

 

Absolutely bizarre rule dude. 

I think you are missing one important part of that.  Just prior to the manually decocking to half cock is not allowed "When in the ready condition".  At load and make ready, you can make ready with your firearm.  You can cock your hammer by hand, decock, etc  but until you have "Made Ready", i,e, prepared to start the course of fire, are you in the ready condition?  I don't think so. In fact, I don't think that applies until the stand by command.  Neither does our local RM or our local RO Instructor, who has worked many nationals with Troy.    The next range command states are you ready?  If the shooter is not ready he can take actions to make ready.    I believe that is also why on the Carry Optics special conditions they added paragraph 2, Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.  I suspect that the intention is to further define what the whole manually decocking rule was suppose to involve.  I do not know why it was not added to the production special conditions and suspect that this is an over sight. 

[HesedTech]

On 11/16/2021 at 3:23 PM, jripper said:

So you are saying, if I lower my hammer on my DA auto to make ready, I stop it too soon, and go to half cock, and immediately realize it and lower it the rest of the way I go to open because for that split second it stopped at half cock?  

 

I went back and read the rules, I’m an RO and have been so for a few years.   I will admit there’s always something I may have missed, like what it means to start “fully outside the shooting area,” but I believe this to be true about “Make Ready” and preparing a DA action pistol. 
 

As an RO it is my understanding and obligation to observe for safety reasons, that a competitor may do whatever is necessary to prepare his or her gun for competition. With the DA gun this means before the gun is holstered and the “Are you ready” command is accepted, the gun is prepared with the “chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.” 
 

As an RO this means to me the competitor may in the preparation safely  take whatever steps or techniques are necessary to complete this. Should the gun’s hammer stop at 1/2 cock and the competitor notices and corrects this condition there should not be any penalties.

 

The question of this poster, in my opinion, is not a violation of the special conditions rule,1 or 2, and would be considered part of the “manual” process of lowering the hammer.  The rule(s) implies a 1/2 cocked gun is intentionally holstered in that condition.

 

However, should the gun be holstered in 1/2 cock and without the safety on the rule 10.5.11.2 may apply and the competitor DQd for unsafe gun handling.

 

The obvious answer is for the RO to pay close attention to the make ready process of the competitor and be knowledgeable about the USPSA rules. 
 

Of course maybe someone else has a better resource and example for this situation, I’m always open to learning more and being a safer RO. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by HesedTech

[jripper]

1 hour ago, HesedTech said:

I went back and read the rules, I’m an RO and have been so for a few years.   I will admit there’s always something I may have missed, like what it means to start “fully outside the shooting area,” but I believe this to be true about “Make Ready” and preparing a DA action pistol. 
 

As an RO it is my understanding and obligation to observe for safety reasons, that a competitor may do whatever is necessary to prepare his or her gun for competition. With the DA gun this means before the gun is holstered and the “Are you ready” command is accepted, the gun is prepared with the “chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.” 
 

As an RO this means to me the competitor may in the preparation safely  take whatever steps or techniques are necessary to complete this. Should the gun’s hammer stop at 1/2 cock and the competitor notices and corrects this condition there should not be any penalties.

 

The question of this poster, in my opinion, is not a violation of the special conditions rule,1 or 2, and would be considered part of the “manual” process of lowering the hammer.  The rule(s) implies a 1/2 cocked gun is intentionally holstered in that condition.

 

However, should the gun be holstered in 1/2 cock and without the safety on the rule 10.5.11.2 may apply and the competitor DQd for unsafe gun handling.

 

The obvious answer is for the RO to pay close attention to the make ready process of the competitor and be knowledgeable about the USPSA rules. 
 

Of course maybe someone else has a better resource and example for this situation, I’m always open to learning more and being a safer RO. 

Agreed. 

[Jeremyc_1999]

On 10/31/2021 at 3:16 AM, slavex said:

Until the start signal you can't do anything to the competitor. Up until then they are free to discover on their own that they aren't compliant, and fix it. Just as they can suddenly remember to insert a mag after forgetting to put one in. Happens all the time. The only time (of the examples given in this thread) that something could be done before the start signal is if they holster fully cocked with no safety applied, and that's it. DQ obviously. 

If they holster a decocked pistol that does not have the safety on is that also a dq (providing the gun has a safety)?

[SGT_Schultz]

55 minutes ago, Jeremyc_1999 said:

If they holster a decocked pistol that does not have the safety on is that also a dq (providing the gun has a safety)?

Can the safety on that pistol be engaged when the hammer is down?

[Jeremyc_1999]

42 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Can the safety on that pistol be engaged when the hammer is down?

Good question. Let’s say yes

[HesedTech]

3 hours ago, Jeremyc_1999 said:

If they holster a decocked pistol that does not have the safety on is that also a dq (providing the gun has a safety)?

According to the rules, no. However, "decocked" has to be defined as the hammer fully forward as stated in the rules. If you mean a gun with a decocker instead of a "safety" then the answer is still no.

 

And unless you have forgotten, at the end of the shooter's run the gun is unloaded, hammer forward and holstered without the safety on.

 

I have guns which will allow the safety to be engaged with the hammer fully forward, "decocked" and others which can't be, however the rule remains the same; the safety is not required to be engaged when the hammer is fully forward.

 

Hope that answers the speculation. Me thinks you are trying to find an exception to the rule book. As always the final answer is the RO is the Captain and holder of safety. If they see or feel something is possibly unsafe or questionable then stop the shooter, unload, show safe and call the RM for an interpretation. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by HesedTech