ND at the beep, DQ?

[EarlKeese]

I was acting as R.O. for an RFPO shooter this weekend at a local level 1 match. At the start beep, he fired a shot into the ground as he was coming up off the start cone. It was very low, nowhere close to the first plate, but obviously not within 10ft of the shooter. Should that be a DQ or not?

[AzShooter]

No DQ.  Past 10 feet.  I'd give him a warning though.  Was finger inside the trigger guard before the beep?  One possibility for the DQ.

 

[Lastcat]

1 hour ago, EarlKeese said:

I was acting as R.O. for an RFPO shooter this weekend at a local level 1 match. At the start beep, he fired a shot into the ground as he was coming up off the start cone. It was very low, nowhere close to the first plate, but obviously not within 10ft of the shooter. Should that be a DQ or not?

 

In this case you state it was, "no where close to the first plate". Was he aiming at the plate in your opinion? Possible inline from his shot hitting the ground to the plate? If not and in your observation if he was not aiming at a target, at the time of said discharge, then DQ:

 

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at
targets.
 

[ChuckS]

14 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

In this case you state it was, "no where close to the first plate". Was he aiming at the plate in your opinion? Possible inline from his shot hitting the ground to the plate? If not and in your observation if he was not aiming at a target, at the time of said discharge, then DQ:

 

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting at
targets.
 

There is no 10.4.6 in the SC rulebook.

[Lastcat]

29 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

There is no 10.4.6 in the SC rulebook.

 

Argh! I guess I missed what forum this was, my bad. But, does apply in USPSA, for what it's worth .

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, Lastcat said:

 

Argh! I guess I missed what forum this was, my bad. But, does apply in USPSA, for what it's worth .

He also wasn’t moving so that rule doesn’t apply anyway

[Cuz]

I don’t know much about steel challenge, but it sort of sounds like a very bad miss. Wouldn’t it be the same thing if he was transitioning from one target to the next and shot early and the round went between the two targets?

[EarlKeese]

34 minutes ago, Cuz said:

I don’t know much about steel challenge, but it sort of sounds like a very bad miss. Wouldn’t it be the same thing if he was transitioning from one target to the next and shot early and the round went between the two targets?

Not a miss, he was surprised when the gun fired. He finished the string, turned around and asked if he was disqualified. It was obviously unintentional, I just don't know if it should be a DQ.

[George Jones]

An unintended early shot which does not fall under any of the AD DQ rules is not a DQ.

Not uncommon for both the shooter and the RO to be caught off-guard and looking at each other.  

You did the right thing by not stopping the shooter.  You should not stop a shooter or apply a DQ unless you're sure.

[IHAVEGAS]

10.3.9 Holstering a loaded handgun without the external safety applied or on a revolver, with the hammer cocked.

 

Thread drift but I think the question is answered. Figured I'd actually do something crazy like read the sc rules and noticed the rule above. Under ready conditions I also find 

"“Double action”–chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked."

 

I shoot a da/sa production gun (Tanfo or CZ), start with hammer down, and NEVER APPLY THE EXTERNAL SAFETY. Per the rules should I be dq'd ? 

[zzt]

31 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I shoot a da/sa production gun (Tanfo or CZ), start with hammer down, and NEVER APPLY THE EXTERNAL SAFETY. Per the rules should I be dq'd ? 

 

No.

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, zzt said:

 

No.

 

I think you are right, but I'm wondering how I get around 10.3.9? I don't think it is what they intended, but a dq for "Holstering a loaded handgun without the external safety  applied" seems pretty black and white. 

 

Maybe there is something somewhere that makes it clear there is an exception? Ready condition for a d.a gun muddies the water but does not seem to counteract the dq for d.a./s.a. guns. 

[ChuckS]

6 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I think you are right, but I'm wondering how I get around 10.3.9? I don't think it is what they intended, but a dq for "Holstering a loaded handgun without the external safety  applied" seems pretty black and white. 

 

Maybe there is something somewhere that makes it clear there is an exception? Ready condition for a d.a gun muddies the water but does not seem to counteract the dq for d.a./s.a. guns. 

10.3.9 Holstering a loaded handgun without the external safety applied or on a revolver, with the hammer cocked.

 

Perhaps not the best sentence structure but I'm thinking from the lack of mass production shooter DQ's in the past, the "hammer cocked" applies to both type of handguns  

[Dr. Phil]

I would not DQ a double action auto for hammer down / safety off condition.

I think the rule sees that gun the same as a revolver.

[ltdmstr]

OP, just curious, but given the facts, why do you use the term "negligent discharge" to describe what happened (as in the title)?  Appears to be an AD, but I don't see any negligence.  Seems a lot of shooters throw that term around bc they want to sound like lawyers, and the result is the exact opposite.  

[Lastcat]

On 9/27/2021 at 4:47 AM, Sarge said:

He also wasn’t moving so that rule doesn’t apply anyway

 

You are wrong. 

 

Quote

At the start beep, he fired a shot into the ground as he was coming up off the start cone.

 

[EarlKeese]

2 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

OP, just curious, but given the facts, why do you use the term "negligent discharge" to describe what happened (as in the title)?  Appears to be an AD, but I don't see any negligence.  Seems a lot of shooters throw that term around bc they want to sound like lawyers, and the result is the exact opposite.  

He broke a shot before he was even close to being on target, and in later discussion couldn't understand how it "happened". For some context(not that it matters), he had jumped the start a couple times earlier in the match and was pushing pretty hard considering it was his second match. If you want to call it accidental, that's fine with me. 

 I'm here to get clarification on whether or not it was a DQ, not to argue semantics with a stranger on the internet.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, EarlKeese said:

I'm here to get clarification on whether or not it was a DQ, not to argue semantics with a stranger on the internet.

 

You cannot apply USPSA rules to SCSA.  If it not specifically included in the SCSA manual, it does not exist.  Here are the SCSA rules covering accidental discharge.

 

10.4 Accidental discharge
10.4.1 Any shot fired while loading/unloading/reloading or lowering the hammer. This includes any shot fired after the “If clear, hammer down, holster” (Rule 8.3.8) command has been issued, except where a shot is deliberately fired to clear the gun under RO supervision.
10.4.2 Any shot fired during remedial action in the case of a malfunction.
10.4.3 Any shot fired outside of a timed string, without RO permission.

10.4.4 Any shot fired into the holster or into the ground within 10 feet of the competitor.
10.4.5 Any shot fired which travels over a backstop or berm in any direction.

 

10.4.1~2 do not apply in this case.  The only three rules that could apply to your scenario are 10.4.3, 10.4.4 and 10.4.5.  There are no other AD rules.

Was it an accidental discharge?  Yes.  Is it a DQ?  No.  Why?  There is no specific rule in the SCSA manual to cover that particular scenario.  The AD was INSIDE of a timed string.  The AD hit FARTHER than 10' from the shooter and it did NOT go over the berm.  If you cannot cite a rule that specifically addresses this particular AD, you cannot DQ the shooter.

 

George Jones answered you earlier.  I hadn't read his post before I posted this.  He is an NROI instructor.  So take his word for things. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by zzt

[EarlKeese]

12 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

You cannot apply USPSA rules to SCSA.  If it not specifically included in the SCSA manual, it does not exist.  Here are the SCSA rules covering accidental discharge.

 

10.4 Accidental discharge
10.4.1 Any shot fired while loading/unloading/reloading or lowering the hammer. This includes any shot fired after the “If clear, hammer down, holster” (Rule 8.3.8) command has been issued, except where a shot is deliberately fired to clear the gun under RO supervision.
10.4.2 Any shot fired during remedial action in the case of a malfunction.
10.4.3 Any shot fired outside of a timed string, without RO permission.

10.4.4 Any shot fired into the holster or into the ground within 10 feet of the competitor.
10.4.5 Any shot fired which travels over a backstop or berm in any direction.

 

10.4.1~2 do not apply in this case.  The only three rules that could apply to your scenario are 10.4.3, 10.4.4 and 10.4.5.  There are no other AD rules.

Was it an accidental discharge?  Yes.  Is it a DQ?  No.  Why?  There is no specific rule in the SCSA manual to cover that particular scenario.  The AD was INSIDE of a timed string.  The AD hit FARTHER than 10' from the shooter and it did NOT go over the berm.  If you cannot cite a rule that specifically addresses this particular AD, you cannot DQ the shooter.

 

George Jones answered you earlier.  I hadn't read his post before I posted this.  He is an NROI instructor.  So take his word for things. 

Who said I'm applying USPSA rules? I have no interest in USPSA, that's why I posted here in the S.C. forum. And yes, George Jones answered the question.

FWIW, I did check the rules before I posted the question. I didn't DQ the shooter, but he was disqualified and that's why I wanted to clarify how/if the rules were applied. Now I know. Thanks everybody for commenting. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Lastcat said:

 

You are wrong. 

 

 

no, you are wrong. AD while moving applies to moving your feet, not moving the gun away from the aiming point at low ready.

[Cuz]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

 

You cannot apply USPSA rules to SCSA.  If it not specifically included in the SCSA manual, it does not exist.  Here are the SCSA rules covering accidental discharge.

 

10.4 Accidental discharge
10.4.1 Any shot fired while loading/unloading/reloading or lowering the hammer. This includes any shot fired after the “If clear, hammer down, holster” (Rule 8.3.8) command has been issued, except where a shot is deliberately fired to clear the gun under RO supervision.
10.4.2 Any shot fired during remedial action in the case of a malfunction.
10.4.3 Any shot fired outside of a timed string, without RO permission.

10.4.4 Any shot fired into the holster or into the ground within 10 feet of the competitor.
10.4.5 Any shot fired which travels over a backstop or berm in any direction.

 

10.4.1~2 do not apply in this case.  The only three rules that could apply to your scenario are 10.4.3, 10.4.4 and 10.4.5.  There are no other AD rules.

Was it an accidental discharge?  Yes.  Is it a DQ?  No.  Why?  There is no specific rule in the SCSA manual to cover that particular scenario.  The AD was INSIDE of a timed string.  The AD hit FARTHER than 10' from the shooter and it did NOT go over the berm.  If you cannot cite a rule that specifically addresses this particular AD, you cannot DQ the shooter.

 

George Jones answered you earlier.  I hadn't read his post before I posted this.  He is an NROI instructor.  So take his word for things. 

ZZT,

thanks for this great explanation. I was having a hard time rationalizing how an AD wouldn’t be a DQ for unsafe gun handling, and now I understand. 
 

Appreciate it. 

[zzt]

6 minutes ago, Cuz said:

I was having a hard time rationalizing how an AD wouldn’t be a DQ for unsafe gun handling

 

In USPSA it would have been a DQ, because the shooter was not aiming at a target when the gun went off.  I mentioned USPSA rules in my last post only because an earlier poster had mentioned moving, a USPSA issue.

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, Lastcat said:

 

You are wrong. 

 

 

Thats not moving.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

In USPSA it would have been a DQ, because the shooter was not aiming at a target when the gun went off.  I mentioned USPSA rules in my last post only because an earlier poster had mentioned moving, a USPSA issue.

No it wouldn't. If you draw to a target 50 yards away and you launch one into the ground 10'1" there is no DQ.

[zzt]

13 hours ago, Sarge said:

No it wouldn't. If you draw to a target 50 yards away and you launch one into the ground 10'1" there is no DQ.

 

Correct.  Improperly worded.  I was thinking of a discharge while moving that was not aimed at a target.