NROI states a rules clarification is coming re: magnets, flashlights

[waktasz]

2 hours ago, PatJones said:

 

If my memory is correct, USPSA passed a rule requiring minimum trigger weights in production about 10 years ago. Everyone who spent a couple hundred bucks to make their M&Ps unsafe had a cow, and the rule was withdrawn.

 

Two be fair, a minimum trigger weight in production division would have helped keep things closer to "factory".

I think it was floated as an idea but it got buried before it went into effect.

[Boomstick303]

Wouldn't fixing Production be easy or am I missing something?  They don't care to enforce the current rules or change them to appease a few and think that rules in Production can't be enforced: therefore, this is where production rules currently stand. In my eyes, create a minimum trigger pull, the gun should fit in a box, no magwell, no lights, keep the current mag capacity rules, and a specific weight to be under would fix most of the issues.  Do not make any rules about changing anything on the gun function wise except in regards to the safeties on the guns (i.e. all safeties must function as were designed on the gun).   This includes trigger pull for DA/SA guns.  Changing out parts on guns is really what they are talking about when they say it is impossible to enforce rules in regards to modifications, right?   Wouldn't creating a minimum trigger pull fixes almost any internal/external changes a shooter can do to a production gun that would make it worth changing anything on the gun?  Who really cares what internal/external changes are made to a gun if it falls into the criteria mentioned above.  Is a fancy hammer or trigger work going to make the gun any better if you require it to have a 4.5 or 5 pound trigger?  My concern is that people show up with what they have and see everything that consistent USPSA shooters show up with and think they "Need" all of that to shoot.  What division is truly and entry level division anymore?  If people think testing triggers is an issue I would think after a year or two of people getting their guns tested and the fear of getting bumped out of production would prevent most from dinking with their guns in the future, and the need to actually measure trigger pull all but disappears from local matches. Maybe only make testing the gun (trigger) a requirement if someone challenges another shooters production gun for locals, and test the trigger at Chrono at Level II and above matches.  I would guess trigger testing would only really matter at Level II matches and above, and people shooting those matches would want to shoot the same trigger at locals they would be using at Level II and above matches.  They would do this if they truly cared about production and keeping production a truly entry level division.

 

I guess it depends if they want to placate growing USPSA versus keeping production in its current form keeping all of the current production shooters happy who have invested heavily in their triggers jobs.  You cannot have it both ways.

 

This is probably all a mute point since the production numbers seem to quickly becoming single stack numbers as far as participation goes. At least it seems that way. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Boomstick303

[Sarge]

40 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

“the majority of members don’t have an issue with these changes so this ok”

 

If you hear that, be cautious. 
 

 

Uspsa has far more members than it does seriously involved shooters. People who shoot one or less local matches a month(when many more are available)are not seriously involved in my opinion. Those tend to be the ones who care less.

 For them it is indeed OK. 

[waktasz]

No one wants a minimum trigger pull rule in Production 

[rowdyb]

1 minute ago, waktasz said:

No one wants a minimum trigger pull rule in Production 

unless it is 2.0lbs haha

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, waktasz said:

No one wants a minimum trigger pull rule in Production 

 

Then you don't want "Production" guns to be production products.  If that is the case then no one should cry about any changes to production guns, including but not limited to any internal/external modification to the gun.  Either USPSA wants to make Production an entry level division for "All" shooters including entry level shooters, or make it a "Race" division.  You cannot have it both ways.

 

Limited and Open it is then.  We are only a few minor rule changes from this anyway.

[waktasz]

34 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Then you don't want "Production" guns to be production products.  If that is the case then no one should cry about any changes to production guns, including but not limited to any internal/external modification to the gun.  Either USPSA wants to make Production an entry level division for "All" shooters including entry level shooters, or make it a "Race" division.  You cannot have it both ways.

 

Limited and Open it is then.  We are only a few minor rule changes from this anyway.

 

Taking a Glock, putting a $22 connector and spring in it and polishing the metal surfaces isn't rocket surgery. The rules were fine before the most recent changes but your suggestion is clearly not wanted by anyone.

Edited May 3, 2021 by waktasz

[Boomstick303]

Just now, waktasz said:

 

Taking a Glock, putting a $22 connector and spring in it and polishing the metal surfaces isn't rocket surgery. 

 

What does that have to do with maintaining production as production guns or an entry level division as what it seems it was designed to be?  A minimum trigger pull rule like ISPC has would keep Production as an entry level division.  At least prevent officials from having to distinguish if internals/externals have been modified against rules that many deem "impossible to enforce".  Otherwise we have production in its current state.  Moving towards limited with every rule change.

 

Not picking a fight or being snarky.

[waktasz]

A Glock with a minor modification is still a "production gun". Meaning it was produced in a factory en mass and isn't a custom gun. People like to tinker. 
 

[waktasz]

What you think you are doing actually just makes $2000 custom shop Production guns more of a thing. 

[cheby]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

i always build a stage for our monthly matches, and I talk to alot of shooters there. I have heard zero complaints about the rules changes from anyone local. Most people either don't care, or they like the new rules. It seems to just be a handful of the same old malcontents complaining on the internet.

That's VERY different from my experience. 

[Boomstick303]

6 minutes ago, waktasz said:

A Glock with a minor modification is still a "production gun". Meaning it was produced in a factory en mass and isn't a custom gun. People like to tinker. 

 

They can tinker all they want as long as the trigger pull is maintained above what the rule states.  Again the shooter can do whatever they want to internal/externals as long as the trigger pull is maintained.

 

6 minutes ago, waktasz said:

What you think you are doing actually just makes $2000 custom shop Production guns more of a thing.

 

Is there or will there ever be a market for $2000 production guns with a 5 pound trigger for competition reasons?  Is there $2000 production guns in IPSC?  I am asking because I do not know.   I know nothing about ISPC.  Why does ISPC maintain this rule?  I imagine is has something to do with keeping guns more production like.  I could be wrong.

 

It gets back to the root of the problem.  Does USPSA have any interest in keeping an entry level division in USPSA?  Because production is NOT currently an entry level division.  Maybe we are talking about two different things possibly.

[BritinUSA]

If they can do whatever they want as long as they keep a minimum trigger pull then you basically have Limited division with DA/striker guns.

 

Under the current rules just about anything goes in Production/CO except for magwells and ported barrels. I suspect that will change soon.

[B_RAD]

11 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

They can tinker all they want as long as the trigger pull is maintained above what the rule states.  Again the shooter can do whatever they want to internal/externals as long as the trigger pull is maintained.

 

 

Is there or will there ever be a market for $2000 production guns with a 5 pound trigger for competition reasons?  Is there $2000 production guns in IPSC?  I am asking because I do not know.   I know nothing about ISPC.  Why does ISPC maintain this rule?  I imagine is has something to do with keeping guns more production like.  I could be wrong.

 

It gets back to the root of the problem.  Does USPSA have any interest in keeping an entry level division in USPSA?  Because production is NOT currently an entry level division.  Maybe we are talking about two different things possibly.

Yes. There are people shooting $2000 production guns. Some people even go as far as to call them “production race guns” Which is pretty funny. 
 

 

you keep saying “entry” level. Was production started to be “entry” into the sport?  It might have became that by default since it was the cheapest division to get into but was that the intent? Or was it more of a division for out of the box guns. The anti race open/limited, more of your stock gun division?  

[B_RAD]

3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

If they can do whatever they want as long as they keep a minimum trigger pull then you basically have Limited division with DA/striker guns.

 

Under the current rules just about anything goes in Production/CO except for magwells and ported barrels. I suspect that will change soon.

So you want another limited division but just with min pull weight and DA/SA only guns?  
 

I mean I agree that’s where it seems to be going(i think are saying the same thing) but that sounds awful.

Edited May 3, 2021 by B_RAD

[BritinUSA]

I’m not saying that at all… I was responding to the previous post. 

[Boomstick303]

14 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Yes. There are people shooting $2000 production guns. Some people even go as far as to call them “production race guns” Which is pretty funny. 

 

With a 5 pound trigger pull?

 

My point is this.  USPSA keeps intimating directly and indirectly that they want to grow the sport.  In my eyes that requires an entry level division.  That's an opinion other may share or may not share.  If they don't want an entry level division then quit talking about growing the sport by introducing new shooters being your primary concern.  

 

Their intent seems to be create a sport with less rules, therefore make the officials think less.  I.e. Limited and Open divisions.  Like I said and has been suggested on many posts on this forum, this is where the sport seems to be headed.

 

Again these are opinions.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Boomstick303

[B_RAD]

16 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

With a 5 pound trigger pull?

 

My point is this.  USPSA keeps intimating directly and indirectly that they want to grow the sport.  In my eyes that requires an entry level division.  That's an opinion other may share or may not share.  If they don't want an entry level division then quit talking about growing the sport by introducing new shooters being your primary concern.  

 

Their intent seems to be create a sport with less rules, therefore make the officials think less.  I.e. Limited and Open divisions.  Like I said and has been suggested on many posts on this forum, this is where the sport seems to be headed.

 

Again these are opinions.

Yup! See custom tuned shadow 2.

 

DA is usually around 5 lbs. 

 

Also, what people say their goals are and what they really are, might not always be the same thing. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by B_RAD

[Boomstick303]

9 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

If they can do whatever they want as long as they keep a minimum trigger pull then you basically have Limited division with DA/striker guns.

 

Sure.  Who cares what people do to their gun.  You don't have full blown limited guns because why would someone make that investment in a production gun (and not shoot limited with it) and they still have to abide by the production list.  Are boutique high end gun companies going to jump at making guns for a division that does not allow their guns to be run, (i.e. single action guns).  Not likely.  Who cares what you do to a gun or how much money you spend to make a "production" gun if the trigger pull is still 5 pounds when it levels the playing field?  Do you think over a hand full of production shooters are making limited guns out of their production rigs with a 5 pound trigger?  If so they deserve to loose money on that investment.  

 

Again I ask why does ISPC maintain this rule?  A question that no one wants to seem to answer.  It seems to work for them. 

 

I get it, production shooters don't want 5 pound triggers, then stop complaining when other rules are changed to move the guns further from "Production", and more towards limited.  How many rules are really keeping production guns from being limited guns now?  The same can be said for CO.  How many rules are keeping CO from being an open gun.  

 

Why do we even have divisions at this point?    

 

All of this is mute anyway, in that USPSA does what they want.  The divisions are becoming what I guess they use to be.  Open and Limited.  Maybe that's for the best anyway.

 

At the end of the day is there an entry level division?  Like Brad asked, was Production even considered entry level?  I do not know.  Maybe I am the one not talking about the same thing here and its a concept I dreamed up in my head.

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Also, what people say their goals are and what they really are, might not always be the same thing. 

 

Agreed!

[Eric802]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

At the end of the day is there an entry level division?  Like Brad asked, was Production even considered entry level?  I do not know.  Maybe I am the one not talking about the same thing here and its a concept I dreamed up in my head.

To me (entry-level shooter) Production is indeed the entry-level division.  You can run what you have and there's no scoring disadvantage since it's all minor.  Will you be competitive with your stock, or mostly stock, gun? No, but not because of the gun. You could give me JJ Racaza's gun and I wouldn't be competitive.  To me, CO is also somewhat an "entry level" division because, although the optic adds cost, a lot of people are putting them on their carry guns anyway.  It's still a "run what you got" division.  The rules allow some modifications, sure, but for the most part (springs, larger mag release buttons, sights) it's stuff that people would or could modify on their carry or nightstand gun anyway.  

 

To me, magwells are where you start leaving "stock" and getting into "race"; the occasional outlier not withstanding, MOST people don't run magwells on their "everyday" guns.  

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

 

At the end of the day is there an entry level division?  

 

 

Single stack 

[Boomstick303]

9 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

To me (entry-level shooter) Production is indeed the entry-level division. 

 

Are these our opinions and does USPSA management share this belief?

 

The current rules and rule changes making "production' further from box stock guns does not make be believe so.

 

9 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

Will you be competitive with your stock, or mostly stock, gun? No, but not because of the gun. You could give me JJ Racaza's gun and I wouldn't be competitive

 

I am pretty sure everyone that spends any amount of time on this board and at matches understands this.  

 

I wonder if Mason Lane winning Limited Nationals with an X5 has people questioning their Limited Gun and spending $3-6K on them?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Boomstick303

[Boomstick303]

Just now, RJH said:

Single stack 

 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

Why do you disagree?  It is THE most competitively equal division as far as equipment goes whether you are shooting a sub 1000 dollar RO or a 5000 dollar SV