NROI states a rules clarification is coming re: magnets, flashlights

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

Why do you disagree?  It is THE most competitively equal division as far as equipment goes whether you are shooting a sub 1000 dollar RO or a 5000 dollar SV

 

I am not disagreeing with the base premise.   I just missed the part where new shooters are showing up with Single Stack guns to compete for their first time.  Not saying it does not happen, but how many are shooting single stacks at their first match?

[BritinUSA]

I think Single Stack is the only stock division left. All the guns are essentially the same, I hope it stays that way.

 

Production is morphing into Limited Minor and CO is morphing into Open/Minor…

 

Maybe that is USPSA’s intent, may be it isn’t. Either way the members clearly no longer have a say in what rules are changed, though that was not always the case.

 

I think Production was seen as an entry level division by some - and in many ways it was - a great many people owned guns that complied with the original intent of the division, and they were certainly much cheaper than custom Limited/Open guns.

 

If it was an entry-level division, it is not any longer. 

[mreed911]

30 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

To me (entry-level shooter) Production is indeed the entry-level division.  You can run what you have and there's no scoring disadvantage since it's all minor. 

 

You can run magazines loaded to full capacity in Production?  Since when?

 

Like it or not, Limited or Carry Optics are the entry level divisions - a place for people to start, get a feel and not worry about the rules, especially now that equipment position isn't an issue.

[Eric802]

6 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

You can run magazines loaded to full capacity in Production?  Since when?

 

Like it or not, Limited or Carry Optics are the entry level divisions - a place for people to start, get a feel and not worry about the rules, especially now that equipment position isn't an issue.

What does loading mags to full capacity have to do with "running what you have"?  You have factory mags - you load 10 rounds into them. Don't need to buy different mags or +2 baseplates or any of that stuff. 

[RJH]

30 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I am not disagreeing with the base premise.   I just missed the part where new shooters are showing up with Single Stack guns to compete for their first time.  Not saying it does not happen, but how many are shooting single stacks at their first match?

 

 

A few but they are really old LOL.  

 

I get what you are saying as "entry level" as in show up and shoot what you got.   I was going by lowest barriers to entry with "competitive equipment."

 

But what you do tend to see is a guy shows up with what he has, then either immediately wants to trick it out or switch divisions anyway.  Or what he had was a glock that used to be illegal cause it had a slide cut so he had to shoot 9mm minor in limited  or go buy a new pistol but now he can shoot it in production.  This is why I don't think much of this really matters, there are pluses and minuses to all sides and people just like to complain regardless 

 

 

[mreed911]

21 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

What does loading mags to full capacity have to do with "running what you have"?  You have factory mags - you load 10 rounds into them. Don't need to buy different mags or +2 baseplates or any of that stuff. 

 

What they have are > 10 round mags.  If they want to "run what they have," they'll need to do it in Limited, CO or Open for now.  You can't have this both ways.

[BritinUSA]

For sports that have equipment requirements, some financial outlay is typically required in many cases. I don’t think the organization should be concerned that some people might be put off with the cost of complying with existing rules.

 

I think the issue here is that the rule changes require existing members to purchase new items/equipment if they wish to retain competitive equity.

 

While it is true that no-one is forcing Prod/CO competitors to buy magnets, it is also true that on any stage requiring all magazines to start off the belt, the competitor with a few magnets will gain a measurable time advantage.

 

So if you want to level the playing field, everyone has to buy magnets.
 

The same is true of flashlights, and all the other division changes.

 

If the changes offer any measurable competitive advantage then the existing member has to break out the credit card to maintain competitive equity.

 

[Boomstick303]

16 minutes ago, RJH said:

This is why I don't think much of this really matters, there are pluses and minuses to all sides and people just like to complain regardless 

 

After this discussion, this is what I have come to.  In the end it does not matter, after all its all just opinions.

[Eric802]

25 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

What they have are > 10 round mags.  If they want to "run what they have," they'll need to do it in Limited, CO or Open for now.  You can't have this both ways.

Sorry, I guess I wasn’t aware that your factory mags ONLY run if filled to capacity. Mine work just fine downloaded to 10 so I’ve done just fine “running what I have”. 

[mreed911]

29 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

Sorry, I guess I wasn’t aware that your factory mags ONLY run if filled to capacity. Mine work just fine downloaded to 10 so I’ve done just fine “running what I have”. 

 

We have different definitions of that, then.  Folks expect to use the full capacity of their magazines.

[Eric802]

12 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

We have different definitions of that, then.  Folks expect to use the full capacity of their magazines.

Regardless of how you define anything, Production is a division where a new shooter can show up and use the equipment they have. The gun, and the mags that came with it. If the word “use” bothers you because it’s not “use at full capacity“, well, ok. 

[cnote]

I believe where he was going is a new shooter shows up with a "glock" and the 2 or 3 mags that come with it.

Cant do production with 2/3 mags but can in Lim minor.

[Eric802]

57 minutes ago, cnote said:

I believe where he was going is a new shooter shows up with a "glock" and the 2 or 3 mags that come with it.

Cant do production with 2/3 mags but can in Lim minor.

True.  Not everyone stocks up on mags.

[twodownzero]

19 hours ago, waktasz said:

No one wants a minimum trigger pull rule in Production 

I'd be absolutely in favor of this and anything else that'd put the horse back in the barn.

[RJH]

30 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

I'd be absolutely in favor of this and anything else that'd put the horse back in the barn.

I would rather go the other way: on the  list, fits in the box, makes weight,  no comps, no dots, done.  Fill the mags up too is fine with me.  

 

Since single stack really does fill the niche of low cap, cost effective,  level playing field,  stockish guns. Let the guys looking for "purity" shoot there. Everyone else could mod their stuff and shoot.

 

Or we could not stress over any of it and work on our skillz.....

[B_RAD]

Anyone else noticed that everyone  has their own ideas and they’re all different. 
 

this just makes it easier for anyone in charge to do whatever they want. 
 

there’s no unity in what’s supposed to be what so, who’s to say what’s right or wrong or better or worse?
 

Instead, USPSA has become nothing more than “this is what I want the rules to be”.  

 

Production is supposed to be a mass produced off the shelf gun. Basically stock set up. If you don’t like that, limited is just a few mods away. If you want even more, then open is your game.  
 

Now it seems people want to basically be unrestricted in what they can do to their production guns even though there’s divisions that allow all the mods they want. Not to mention, any mods you’re allowed to make to “help you shoot better” is also allowed for everyone else.  So, you’re right back to where you started. Which is wherever you’re skill level is. Nobody wins a match that they would otherwise lose because now they can put a WML on their gun. Magnets are perfect example. Sure, you can get that mag off the table and stowed faster..... but so can everyone else. So, you don’t gain any ground. And typically the shooters with the higher skill level will actually get more performance from any mod or change.  So, unless that’s you, you’re gonna get beat by even more now. 

 

 

But,... today it’s just a “I want to mod my production gun. Because I want to!  I don’t want to pay the extra cost for limited or open. I want! I want! I want!” 
 

“I can’t be competitive with my Glock shooting against someone with a heavy CZ!  So change the rules so I can add frame weights so I can be competitive”. This is nothing more than children throwing tantrums and the parents allowing it. Rational adults would say, “then go shoot the CZ if you feel it’s better”. But nope. 
 

 

 

[BritinUSA]

There used to be clear delineation between the four most popular handgun divisions. So there were choices, ironically with all these changes there is LESS choice, everything is costing more. 
 

Limited and Production were separated by power factor and cost, now it’s just power factor. Same with Open and CO.

 

USPSA members fall into three main groups.

1. Members who hardly shoot at all.

2. ‘Social’ members who compete at local matches mostly for fun.

3. Competitive members, local, area, state and possible Nationals. 
 

Group 3 is the most affected by these changes. Sadly, they are the minority, and are treated accordingly.

[Boomstick303]

5 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

USPSA members fall into three main groups.

1. Members who hardly shoot at all.

2. ‘Social’ members who compete at local matches mostly for fun.

3. Competitive members, local, area, state and possible Nationals. 
 

Group 3 is the most affected by these changes. Sadly, they are the minority, and are treated accordingly.

 

For certain.

[echotango]

2 hours ago, B_RAD said:

Anyone else noticed that everyone  has their own ideas and they’re all different. 
 

this just makes it easier for anyone in charge to do whatever they want. 
 

there’s no unity in what’s supposed to be what so, who’s to say what’s right or wrong or better or worse?
 

Instead, USPSA has become nothing more than “this is what I want the rules to be”.  

 

Production is supposed to be a mass produced off the shelf gun. Basically stock set up. If you don’t like that, limited is just a few mods away. If you want even more, then open is your game.  
 

Now it seems people want to basically be unrestricted in what they can do to their production guns even though there’s divisions that allow all the mods they want. Not to mention, any mods you’re allowed to make to “help you shoot better” is also allowed for everyone else.  So, you’re right back to where you started. Which is wherever you’re skill level is. Nobody wins a match that they would otherwise lose because now they can put a WML on their gun. Magnets are perfect example. Sure, you can get that mag off the table and stowed faster..... but so can everyone else. So, you don’t gain any ground. And typically the shooters with the higher skill level will actually get more performance from any mod or change.  So, unless that’s you, you’re gonna get beat by even more now. 

 

 

But,... today it’s just a “I want to mod my production gun. Because I want to!  I don’t want to pay the extra cost for limited or open. I want! I want! I want!” 
 

“I can’t be competitive with my Glock shooting against someone with a heavy CZ!  So change the rules so I can add frame weights so I can be competitive”. This is nothing more than children throwing tantrums and the parents allowing it. Rational adults would say, “then go shoot the CZ if you feel it’s better”. But nope. 
 

 

 

Perfectly said. 

[Racinready300ex]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

I would rather go the other way: on the  list, fits in the box, makes weight,  no comps, no dots, done.  Fill the mags up too is fine with me.  

 

Since single stack really does fill the niche of low cap, cost effective,  level playing field,  stockish guns. Let the guys looking for "purity" shoot there. Everyone else could mod their stuff and shoot.

 

Or we could not stress over any of it and work on our skillz.....

 

lol production guns weight more then my limited guns now. In fact, if I use 126mm mags my limited gun would fit the production box. Seems like the division you want would of been easier to create by just adding a box to limited. 

[cheby]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

There used to be clear delineation between the four most popular handgun divisions. So there were choices, ironically with all these changes there is LESS choice, everything is costing more. 
 

Limited and Production were separated by power factor and cost, now it’s just power factor. Same with Open and CO.

 

USPSA members fall into three main groups.

1. Members who hardly shoot at all.

2. ‘Social’ members who compete at local matches mostly for fun.

3. Competitive members, local, area, state and possible Nationals. 
 

Group 3 is the most affected by these changes. Sadly, they are the minority, and are treated accordingly.

Excellent post 

[PatJones]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

USPSA members fall into three main groups.

1. Members who hardly shoot at all.

2. ‘Social’ members who compete at local matches mostly for fun.

3. Competitive members, local, area, state and possible Nationals. 

Paul, what group are you in? I like to think I'm in group 3.

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, PatJones said:

Paul, what group are you in? I like to think I'm in group 3.

Group 1 - I haven’t shot a match since September 2019.

[Jabberwalkie09]

7 hours ago, RJH said:

I would rather go the other way: on the  list, fits in the box, makes weight,  no comps, no dots, done.  Fill the mags up too is fine with me.  

 

Since single stack really does fill the niche of low cap, cost effective,  level playing field,  stockish guns. Let the guys looking for "purity" shoot there. Everyone else could mod their stuff and shoot.

 

Or we could not stress over any of it and work on our skillz.....

I don’t know if I would necessarily call SS a cost effective division...

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, Jabberwalkie09 said:

I don’t know if I would necessarily call SS a cost effective division...

 

 

A what is generally considered  "highly competitive" gun with mods cost less than the same in any other division.   The CZs that everyone loves for production start at 1400 and go up, the Sig legion that people like in CO is about 1000, before the optic and trigger job, Springfield ROs are about 900 plus 100 for a magwell and trigger job.  So about as cost effective as it gets.  

 

And if you talk about just buy a glock, everyone still gets a trigger job for 160+, new sights for whatever Dawson's cost, etc, etc.  And then they are going to trade it in to buy the sig or CZ LOL