NROI states a rules clarification is coming re: magnets, flashlights

[Jabberwalkie09]

39 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

A what is generally considered  "highly competitive" gun with mods cost less than the same in any other division.   The CZs that everyone loves for production start at 1400 and go up, the Sig legion that people like in CO is about 1000, before the optic and trigger job, Springfield ROs are about 900 plus 100 for a magwell and trigger job.  So about as cost effective as it gets.  

 

And if you talk about just buy a glock, everyone still gets a trigger job for 160+, new sights for whatever Dawson's cost, etc, etc.  And then they are going to trade it in to buy the sig or CZ LOL

I’ve always thought the RO recommendation for SS was along the same lines as the Glock recommendation for Prod. After swapping out the guts of an RO, the next step IMO for SS would be hopping into a Dan Wesson.

[RJH]

21 minutes ago, Jabberwalkie09 said:

I’ve always thought the RO recommendation for SS was along the same lines as the Glock recommendation for Prod. After swapping out the guts of an RO, the next step IMO for SS would be hopping into a Dan Wesson.

But the difference is an ro and an sv weigh about the same, can have triggers that are about the same, sights track about the same. None of that can be said about glock vs shadow 2. 

 

Until they wear out there is no real reason to swap internals and a dan Wesson, while fitted better will have no difference in scores to the RO. The same may or may not be true of the glock vs cz, depending on who is shooting and who you ask lol

 

I have put thousands of rounds through stock rock island parts, though I don't necessarily recommend it:-)

 

 

 

[Brooke]

On 3/12/2021 at 12:44 PM, Ssanders224 said:

 

I don't think you're wrong. 

 

However, I think the "bring in more shooters by letting them shoot what is popular in the gun world" thing is a fallacy. 

 

That's not really what attracts people to amateur sports. Good competition, concise rules, organized structure, and cool gear/equipment is. Watering down a sport to be more "inclusive" rarely results in a net benefit IMO.  Actually, in my experience over the last 20 years of competing in various amateur sports, people are DRAWN to the sport specific equipment. Learning about it, buying it, upgrading it.  It's like racing sports, the special equipment is part of the draw. 

 

 

Yep. 

Yep. It won't bring in any shooter that stay. If you aren't willing to buy a competitive gun, you can't afford to shoot USPSA. As soon as your non-competitive ass gets kicked you'll go home. The good part of USPSA is that no matter how bad we are we are trying to get better not get a break on rules. This change will not result in anything useful.

[Brooke]

On 3/12/2021 at 12:44 PM, Ssanders224 said:

 

I don't think you're wrong. 

 

However, I think the "bring in more shooters by letting them shoot what is popular in the gun world" thing is a fallacy. 

 

That's not really what attracts people to amateur sports. Good competition, concise rules, organized structure, and cool gear/equipment is. Watering down a sport to be more "inclusive" rarely results in a net benefit IMO.  Actually, in my experience over the last 20 years of competing in various amateur sports, people are DRAWN to the sport specific equipment. Learning about it, buying it, upgrading it.  It's like racing sports, the special equipment is part of the draw. 

 

 

Yep. 

Yep. It won't bring in any shooter that stay. If you aren't willing to buy a competitive gun, you can't afford to shoot USPSA. As soon as your non-competitive ass gets kicked you'll go home. The good part of USPSA is that no matter how bad we are we are trying to get better not get a break on rules. This change will not result in anything useful.

[eisenhow]

On 5/3/2021 at 2:25 PM, Hdiamond said:

 

I get frustrated whenever I hear this myth that we need special divisions for those states. Rule 3.3.1 handles this across all divisions. L10 was started as a place to send the Single Stacks before Single Stack. Production was started for off the shelf guns, not to give 10-round states a division to play with. The capacity was an equalizer across a wide variety of models. 

 

Rule 3.3.1 doesn't really handle states that have grandfathering rules.  In MA you can have pre-94 mags.  If production went to 15 you shoot a glock w/ pre-ban mags.  If you wanted to shoot an M&P or SigP320 you'd be a felon or stuck with 10 rds.  

[motosapiens]

On 5/4/2021 at 11:46 AM, B_RAD said:

 

 

Production is supposed to be a mass produced off the shelf gun. Basically stock set up. If you don’t like that, limited is just a few mods away. If you want even more, then open is your game.  
 

Now it seems people want to basically be unrestricted in what they can do to their production guns even though there’s divisions that allow all the mods they want. Not to mention, any mods you’re allowed to make to “help you shoot better” is also allowed for everyone else.  

 

 

I disagree that production is for a basically stock set up. To me it makes sense to just be based on a practical duty or carry gun with reasonable modifications to make it fit you personally or work for you personally a little better.

 

i just finished working locap nationals, and i saw almost zero decent shooters with flashlights. none on the super squad that i saw. this whole topic seems like a giant nothing burger.

[mreed911]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i just finished working locap nationals, and i saw almost zero decent shooters with flashlights. none on the super squad that i saw. this whole topic seems like a giant nothing burger.

 

Almost none of those had time to get a new holster, practice their draw or get used to the feel of a new configuration prior to nationals.  I expect to see MANY more next year.

[motosapiens]

On 5/3/2021 at 5:17 PM, BritinUSA said:

 

So if you want to level the playing field, everyone has to buy magnets.
 

The same is true of flashlights, and all the other division changes.

 

If the changes offer any measurable competitive advantage then the existing member has to break out the credit card to maintain competitive equity.

 

 

it does not appear to me that a flashlight offers any competitive advantage. It also appears to me that a magnet only offers a competitive advantage on a stupid stage. I have not seen such a stage at a bigger match since area one in Montana a couple years ago,  Because those stages are stupid.

 

I spent zero dollars and zero cents upgrading my single stack rig after the new rule changes and I had my best ever finish at nationals anyway. I think scores may be more based on skill and preparation rather than purchasing trinkets and doodads.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, mreed911 said:

 

Almost none of those had time to get a new holster, practice their draw or get used to the feel of a new configuration prior to nationals.  I expect to see MANY more next year.

I have talked to a number of good shooters that had time to try out a flashlight and they concluded it was stupid.

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

I expect to see MANY more next year.

 

Not for top shooters, at least I don't believe so.   I see tons of C and B level shooters incorporating them, but do you really think the top guys are going to benefit anything from incorporating WML on a 9mm?   The only time I see top guys using them is in a stage that requires a light, then and only then I would think they would entertain the use of a WML, for that particular match if not having one was a notable competitive disadvantage.

 

Of course this is my opinion and only time will tell the real story.  

Edited May 10, 2021 by Boomstick303

[Eric802]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I disagree that production is for a basically stock set up. To me it makes sense to just be based on a practical duty or carry gun with reasonable modifications to make it fit you personally or work for you personally a little better.

 

This is how I see it as well.  Most people who are serious about shooting and/or carrying for self-defense modify something on their gun, even without considerations for competition - grips, springs, sights, etc.  Finding where to draw the line and keep the guns "Production" is obviously difficult. 

[B_RAD]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I disagree that production is for a basically stock set up. To me it makes sense to just be based on a practical duty or carry gun with reasonable modifications to make it fit you personally or work for you personally a little better.

 

i just finished working locap nationals, and i saw almost zero decent shooters with flashlights. none on the super squad that i saw. this whole topic seems like a giant nothing burger.

That’s cool. We all don’t have to have the same opinion. Maybe that’s what the intent was when they started it?  Idk?

 

 

but....... weren’t you all for this WML rule change because it leveled the playing field for guys shooting glocks against those “race guns” (aka Shadow 2)?

 

So, it’a now a “nothing burger” cause nobody on the super squad had one and the new Nat champ shoots a $500 plastic gun?  

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

 

but....... weren’t you all for this WML rule change because it leveled the playing field for guys shooting glocks against those “race guns” (aka Shadow 2)?

 

no, i don’t really care about the wml rule, but if someone with a plastic gun feels it will benefit them, that doesn’t bother me. i think it will have minimal effect on the sport.

Edited May 10, 2021 by motosapiens

[B_RAD]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

no, i don’t really care about the wml rule, but if someone with a plastic gun feels it will benefit them, that doesn’t bother me.

Sorry if that sounded rude. I want trying to be.  Just asking.   
 

Anyways. Like I said, I might be wrong but I thought prod was for “stock” guns  

 

oh well, it is what it is.

 

 

[motosapiens]

ive still got another hour to kill in the airport, so im happy to argue/discuss this more. production and stock seem like distinctly different concepts to me. one implies larger scale manufacturing as opposed to custom guns. the other implies something more or less out of the box. perhaps that is why it was never called the stock division.

Edited May 10, 2021 by motosapiens

[B_RAD]

I’m just going off my own understanding or what I thought it meant/was. So, I could be wrong.  
 

 

There was a thread a year or so ago, that was about the intent of production. I thought someone had posted a screen shot of the initial description directly from USPSA, from when they stated production. Somehow they found something from a press release or meeting minutes from back then and it described the new division. 
 

again, I may be way off so,......

[B_RAD]

But to me,.... another division of modded out guns, but in minor, sounds ehh....

 

but apparently I’m in the minority 

[mreed911]

16 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Anyways. Like I said, I might be wrong but I thought prod was for “stock” guns  

 

If you want to test your mettle with stock Glocks, GSSF is looking for you.  Every division by rule is bone-stock/OEM except for "Unlimited."

[RJH]

28 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I have talked to a number of good shooters that had time to try out a flashlight and they concluded it was stupid.

 

While i don't doubt what you are saying,  when i started every one said da/sa was stupid and striker fire was what you needed. Then stoeger came along and started beating everyone with his beretta and tangfolio and now most people say plastic is stupid and da/sa is what you need. I think next year there will be some top shooters with lights on their guns, will it matter, idk. I am putting one on my new carry ops gun,  but I suck and am only doing it for the instant gm card lol

[Racinready300ex]

42 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

ive still got another hour to kill in the airport, so im happy to argue/discuss this more. production and stock seem like distinctly different concepts to me. one implies larger scale manufacturing as opposed to custom guns. the other implies something more or less out of the box. perhaps that is why it was never called the stock division.

 

Of course now with production you can call up a custom shop like CZ custom, or Cajun  and have them build you a "production" gun with all the custom parts you feel you need to be competitive. Not all that different from getting a tuned up edge or trubor back in the day from someone like dawson. Calling it production makes about as much sense as calling it stock IMO.

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Of course now with production you can call up a custom shop like CZ custom, or Cajun  and have them build you a "production" gun with all the custom parts you feel you need to be competitive. Not all that different from getting a tuned up edge or trubor back in the day from someone like dawson. Calling it production makes about as much sense as calling it stock IMO.

 

sure, you can do that. does it give you an advantage? or is it just fun for some people?

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

sure, you can do that. does it give you an advantage? or is it just fun for some people?

 

Does that change the concept of production vs stock as you described them above? I don't follow.

[motosapiens]

19 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Does that change the concept of production vs stock as you described them above? I don't follow.

it's still a mass-produced gun based on a practical duty/carry weapon. tweaking a few parts to personalize it or make it fit better, or compensate for girly-weak hands doesn't change that.

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

it's still a mass-produced gun based on a practical duty/carry weapon. tweaking a few parts to personalize it or make it fit better, or compensate for girly-weak hands doesn't change that.

 

So are most 2011's who's frames and slides are mass produced just like our production guns. Then you your gun smith just adds small parts to personalize it for you. 

[motosapiens]

37 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So are most 2011's who's frames and slides are mass produced just like our production guns. Then you your gun smith just adds small parts to personalize it for you. 

i think that's a bit of a stretch, but more importantly, a 2011 is not really a practical or common duty/carry gun, even if there a handful of wanna-be operators that do carry one.