The State Of 3 Gunning

[Bob Hostetter]

Wow, I posted a couple of opinions on what I believe is the state of 3 gunning, and suddenly I am demanding that shotgun stages be limited to 8 rounds or better yet, eliminated from 3 gunning. Gee, I am glad everyone can read between the lines and discover that what I said was not what I meant..........

For what it's worth, I like the shotgun, even if it is an obsolute weapon. I just don't happen to think a 30 round shotgun stage is of any value. 15-20 rounds seems like enough to prove you can shoot AND reload, especially if you mix slugs with birdshot.

KurtM, you are right, I haven't shot much 3 gun lately but I shot a lot of it for about 15 years, (and will again in the future, Heavy Metal Division looks interesting) so I think my opinion might have some value, at least enough to voice in a forum requesting such opinions. By the way I want to thank you for making me feel welcome to come back into the 3 gun game, it is .......Priceless........

[SinistralRifleman]

I just spent the past 4 days attending Tactical Rifle classes put on by Tactical Response. I have previously taken handgun, sub-machine gun, and shotgun training from them.

The number of problems that can be solved with rifles, especially groups of people with rifles, dramatically out number those that can be solved with shotguns. I wouldn't want anyone on my "team" to have a shotgun unless for a special purpose like breaching, nor can I think of an instance I would go to a shotgun if a rifle or sub-machine gun was available. Range, Rate of Fire, and Reloads are all much better with a rifle.

The scenerios in which we use shotguns most often at matches, seem artificial to me...as others mentioned it would make more sense to shoot the gun empty then continue on with handgun.

[Paule]

How about a hypothetical? Six guys are coming at you fast, 50 yards away. You can:

A- Draw your pistol of choice and open fire. Approx. 20 shots to neutralize.

B- Shoulder your 12 Ga. shotgun and open fire. Approx. 10 shots to neutralize.

C- Shoulder your .223 rifle and open fire. Approx. 30 rounds to neutralize.

My bet is that the shotgun will most often result in no one getting to you. Even marginal hits will do more damage than either the rifle or the pistol. If reliable, instant incapacitation is your goal, the shotgun is hard to beat inside 50 yards. May be why the military phases them out in peacetime and rediscovers them whenever a war breaks out.

Besides that, shotguns are fun to shoot. They knock things down and blow things up with authority. I would like to see scoring/rules that reward shooting flying clays and other disappearing targets though, instead of making them "unshootables". (I don't like the idea of any targets that are "not worth shooting"). If long range rifle targets can be assigned extra points to encourage shooting them, why not extras for disappearing clays? Bring the traps and flippers back!

Edited October 26, 2005 by Paule

[Larry White]

Yep, shotguns are old,antiquated and to use Kurts new word, quaint. Kinda like breaking eggs with a hammer, but lets not lose sight of the fact that hammers damn sure break eggs. On the other hand I feel that in a shotgun COF at about 20 to 24 rds the point has been made and some of the slug stages I have seen the last couple of years look a lot like a short rifle course to me.-----Larry

[Unleashed]

I do believe this is a sport......and the last time I went over-seas, I didn't see anyone running around with a .38 super, comp and c-more.

I am not sure how this conversation digressed to the "practicality of three-gun" (didn't fell like reading 6+ pages), but I think we should remember that we are competing and things might not always be "realistic". However, this doesn't mean that the competition won't be fun!

Just my $0.02

Edwin

[Zak Smith]

I am not sure how this conversation digressed to the "practicality of three-gun"

Like USPSA & IDPA, 3Gun is a "practical" shooting sport, still married to the martial use of weapons, not basically divorced like High Power, Bullseye, etc.

The influence of "practical" is clearly manifest in the ongoing debate of He-Man division, Trooper class, etc.

Edited October 26, 2005 by Zak Smith

[Chuck Anderson]

"I do believe this is a sport......and the last time I went over-seas, I didn't see anyone running around with a .38 super, comp and c-more. "

And fifteen years ago you almost never saw anyone with glass on their AR. I can't remember the last photo I saw from the sandbox without some type of optic. A lot of those optics were pioneered by bulletproofed in IPSC. Give it time and you may very well see the open pistols. I doubt it but who knows.

[latewatch]

How about a hypothetical? Six guys are coming at you fast, 50 yards away. You can:

A- Draw your pistol of choice and open fire. Approx. 20 shots to neutralize.

B- Shoulder your 12 Ga. shotgun and open fire. Approx. 10 shots to neutralize.

C- Shoulder your .223 rifle and open fire. Approx. 30 rounds to neutralize.

My bet is that the shotgun will most often result in no one getting to you. Even marginal hits will do more damage than either the rifle or the pistol. If reliable, instant incapacitation is your goal, the shotgun is hard to beat inside 50 yards. May be why the military phases them out in peacetime and rediscovers them whenever a war breaks out.

That would be just fine until you realize that the six guys have armor or they start taking covered positions at 40-50 yards. Then you'll find out how limited a shotgun is in a tactical situation. If you told me that all of my threats would be in the open, within 20 yards and had no armor, and there wouldn't be more then 5-6 at a time, then I'd say the shotgun would be an exellent choice. So far in my military and police experience, no one has promised me that.

With that being said, I love 3 gunning and would do it over any other type of shooting if given the choice. While I would not take a shotgun as my first choice in a tactical situation, I do enjoy shooting them in 3 gun matches. I just think that they are being given too much weight in the final results. Maybe if I could reload like Kurt or some of the other big dogs, I'd feel different. But then again, I can't shoot rifle/pistol like the big dogs and I have no problem with any of the rifle/pistol stages that I can think of.

Think I'm up to .10 cents now

[MKuhn]

The state of three gunning looks great to me. However we will always be on the fringes of sporting, mass popularity can’t happen, it’s not spectator friendly for one thing.

From the posts, the thought of one banner is not going to happen unless the banner’s a Jolly Roger.

Back to one issue.

{Sordid vs. Sanctified}

{ }

{ }

In the beginning there were sporting 3 gun matches and it was at least 15 years before USPSA had 3 gun any thing, I hear they were a blast and no one got shot. Referring to any “other match” as “outlaw” sounds like a bureaucratic ploy to gain control and further erode my freedoms by-gum.

Personal note

I don’t play my old sport any more, the rule inventors would not make the track easier or have the equipment never go obsolete, they refused to make the ground softer and insisted on allowing faster younger players in plus life got in the way.

In my new sport I’m not to old, to blind, to fat or to poor yet. To be competitive here I can work on developing proficiency (scary), build some form of physical prowlness (pathetic) and can afford to play.

There will never be an easy button.

Mell

Edited October 26, 2005 by MKuhn

[PacMan]

In the beginning there were sporting 3 gun matches and it was at least 15 years before USPSA had 3 gun any thing, I hear they were a blast and no one got shot. Referring to any “other match” as “outlaw” sounds like a bureaucratic ploy to gain control and further erode my freedoms by-gum.

In my new sport I’m not to old, to blind, to fat or to poor yet. To be competitive here I can work on developing proficiency (scary), build some form of physical prowlness (pathetic) and can afford to play.

There will never be an easy button.

Mell

Well said Mell!

Edited October 26, 2005 by PacMan

[Paule]

That would be just fine until you realize that the six guys have armor or they start taking covered positions at 40-50 yards. Then you'll find out how limited a shotgun is in a tactical situation.

With armor and cover (not concealment) the pistol is worthless and the rifle only marginally better unless you have a bigger one than most 3-gunners shoot.

My point was that shotguns are not necessarily the worst choice for a self defense weapon and certainly worth the time to learn how to reload and shoot one. My first choice will always be a suppressed .338 Lapua, a concealed position, and a good spotter. Not in a 3-Gun match though.

I do think that high round counts with no other purpose put too high a premium on reloading. I like harder targets that are easily missed make more interesting shotgun stages. Long plates and movers come to mind. Oh, and don't forget the flying ones!

[Zak Smith]

My first choice will always be a suppressed .338 Lapua, a concealed position, and a good spotter.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about!

[kurtm]

Bob:

For a guy that basically posts that anyone that is good at loading a shotgun has no job and has no care for thier family you sure have a thin skin.

As I recall the guys who train the most usually win. Even in the real world this is still true. I can't do a 1 second reload with my pistol like some hotshots do, but I don't try to limit the amount of pistol reloading at matches, I practice a bit more if possible. If I can't practice, I am not going to demand others do less.

A 30 round shotgun stage doesn't have to prove anything, it is fun for some, work for others but it is still what it is. I personally like them because no matter how good , or not good you are they last a while and boy you sure are busy, and you are shooting at a lot of things. I never got the impression that you wanted to do away with shotgun, I got that impression from Zak, which is fine.

For what it is worth, IMGA runs scoring so that EACH stasge is 100 points for the winner and those under him get a percentage of that 100 points. If the shotgun stage was only 1 round it still would have the same weight as if it were 100 rounds, so why not get the most for your money. I just don't see how this causes the "shotgun stages" to overweight the match. I love the idea of intermingling slugs and shot and practice that all the time. That is why when they have stages like that at Mesa or Rm3-G I usually do alright.

While we are on the subject of practice and job and family, I am still employed full time +, and My 6 year old triplets take a bit of time, but I have been able to eke out a little time to practice. I wish I had more, but I'm not going to begrude the person who does.

Mel makes a great point. It is USPSA that is the "outlaw" here, not the other way around. KURTM

[Zak Smith]

FWIW, I believe the high round count shotgun stages at RM3G are the most complex and challenging stages, and I do enjoy them for that reason.

[kellyn]

I don't think improving the state of 3 gunning is accomplished by dumping one or two of the guns! Certainly the rifle/carbine is the most versatile weapon and I am not against having Rifle only matches (I'm actually very much for that!) but it would no longer be 3 gunning.

My sources from the sand box indicate that the shotgun is alive and well. Paule's comments about shotguns being rediscovered in wartime is certainly true. I also agree with his comment that 3 gunning ought to involve more flying clay engagement. We should be testing the full use of the shotgun.

I did not mean for the term "outlaw" to be an insidious means to control the universe. It's become sort of the common term and sounds more sexy than "non-USPSA" or "matches where Mike Voigt is not president" or "MGM/RM3G/SMM3G/AMU/NAT/CavArms/etc/etc/etc. No disrespect intended.

[Paule]

Zak is right on the longer SG stages at the RM3G. They tend to have higher round counts, but they require movement, make you hunt for targets, modify shooting positions, and generally have a grand time once the buzzer goes off. If you shoot a bunch, then put your head down and load'n'walk, you will walk past some for sure. Lots of action, including constantly reinventing your shooting plan. (At least for me!). Makes for a great stage. If the course dictates it, the rounds will take care of themselves.

What I don't enjoy as much is to shoot eight, load while walking to "the finale", and then shooting another 20 rounds or so flatfooted. Boring, and tedious, and the round count is just to provide more shooting, not to present a unique challenge with mulitple solutions.

[Flexmoney]

The State Of 3 Gunning, Where are we? Where should we be going? Options

OK...165 posts.

To summarize (from my read):

- The opinions are split on whether to holster hot, or not. (that is a dead horse)

- Most everybody wants to shoot AR's, Shotguns, & Pistols (Kinda pointless to continue debating which is more "practical, for the purposes of this thread.)

- Shotgun reloading is a skill set. Competition is about testing skills.

- Match Directors should be aware of what skills they are testing. Don't let you match be weighted to favor shotgun reloading, long-range rifle, pistol courses, etc....unless that is the nature of the match you want to present to the shooters.

- He-man ought to be it's own separate Division.

- Calling matches "Outlaw" doesn't go over well.

[MikeFoley]

I also agree with his comment that 3 gunning ought to involve more flying clay engagement. We should be testing the full use of the shotgun.

Great point. More test of all the skills with the shotgun. Reloading is one of those. There are other facets like distance, movement, position, target type and size, and ammo type. Flying clays are great fun!

A difference with reloading the pistol, is in Limited you can get another 20 in less than a second, same with rifle, but in a Limited shotgun, another 20 is a much more cumbersome and time consuming thing. Not gonna post a time here because then an argument will ensue about how long it takes and whose technique is best. My technique from shot to shot is about 2 seconds for the first round and one additional second per round up to four, then two for 5 and one additonal per round up to 8, and that won't get it done this weekend or any other.

Everyone has the same opportunity to practice, some do, and they are the better prepared, but I never hear anyone say they get great joy out of stuffing individual shells in a shotgun. Some of the guys saying "bring it on" have an interest in Open, once again anyone could choose to shoot Open, even though many will never do so. I personally shoot Tactical, and have no interest in an Open pistol or shotgun, so I gotta practice stuffing rounds into the gun in ones, threes, or fours.

That said, I really gotta practice reloads for the KY ST 3G coming up this weekend where it will be a major determining factor on the outcome since the only three shotgun courses are 22, 18, and 13. They will be fun, but the 18 and 13 will be more fun for me. It is all perspective on this issue for sure.

[3GunF1Guy]

I am just wondering what everyone thinks about the flying birds with a shotgun? They are totally Un-practical, but they sure are fun to me. Things like pigeon flipper poppers and real throwers. For example at our match we are having this weekend we will set up 3 electric throwers (like they use for sporting clays), the stage will be a fixed time stage but when you call "pull" you will get 3 birds (or maybe 2 birds and a rabbit) you have to hit them or it is a miss for each. This is totally un-practical, (unless you happen to have you combat shotgun, it's pheasant season and 3 birds fly up) but I am sure it will be allot of fun and really test your ability to hit moving targets with a shotgun. Lead has never been tested in 3-gun. Is this a good idea or would everyone hate it?

BTW +1 to almost everything kurtm said in this post. He is on the same page I am when it comes to how 3-gun should run.

[Paule]

I have shot several combat shotgun courses and they tend to have a lot of birds coming at you, as in shoot them or move out of the way or you get hit. not my daddy's trap field. More like duck flush with a major attitude.

[Jim Norman]

This is quite an interesting thread. Seems the state of 3-gunning is essentialy an argument of whether or not it should be 2 gun or remain 3 gun.

I think that the shotgun needs to remain, this is a game people, we keep score on paper, not with body bags.

The big problem that I have is with the scoing systems that are used. At our match we use Hit Factor to determine the order of finish on each stage, BUT we use the stage percentages as the stage points. In other words, each stage is worth 100 points regardless of how fast, long, or tough it is. this means that in order to win, you have to be good all around. Using Time-Plus,unless all the stages are nearly the same length of time, it is possible to skew the results. Say there is one long rifle course and most of the people take 190-140 seconds and one really good rifle shooter does it in 90. He can win even if he is way down the list on all the shorter courses. Say the average pistol course is 20-30 seconds. He can do them in 40-50 and still time out lower overall because his rifle course is that good.

Jim

[Religious Shooter]

I am just wondering what everyone thinks about the flying birds with a shotgun?

I think they are great. The problem with USPSA scoring was that they were undervalued and were often ignored (not engaged) by the saavy shooters.

With the new scoring system that may (or may not) have changed. I thought they still need to be valued more to be a definite "must engage".

I really wanted to see if the new values would make it worthwhile. Went to Area 1 3 Gun (first "major" USPSA match to use the new rules) in Oregon to see... But nope. No flippers.

Went to the Nationals hoping again to test the new scoring... again no flippers.

Hopefully they will have them somewhere. I guess I have to go to more "Outlaw" matches to see them. But of course the 2005 RM3G didn't have them either.

[TeamGE]

I think flying clays (or flippers) are too hard to score and use for 3gun. We all know when they get busted good, but one pellet does not always break it. We score stationary clays as hits with one "chip" in it, thats fine. But a clay that breaks when it hits the ground can't be scored, and usually ends up a non penalty miss. Range equipment failures are likely when the clays are not reset right on the throwers. All just too much trouble. At my local 3gun matches, we us aluminum cans on the flippers. If a can is questioned for being hit, just go inspect the can. I know cans are not the easiest to come up with for a big match, but it is an good fix for the scoring problem. Just one idea.

One big beef I have is slug only stages or slug shots past 50 yards. A shotgun is not a rifle, at least the ones we use for this game. I don't mind mixing the ammo up in a stage, but any more then 5 or 6 rounds is rediculous. Punching paper with slugs is boring and hard to tape up, knocking down steel at a safe distance is way more fun. Shotgun needs to stay, always should be. There is nothing like blowing open, vaporizing, smashing, hammering down targets in a hurry, with a shotgun!

This is a game, and we need to keep it in perspective to the real life uses of firearms. I do get caught up in the power of the guns we use, but I also come back to reality when I look at the people who are shooting the game, and the people who are watch us. We need to keep this sport a game and not a military/swat testing ground for equipment. I know alot of what we develope for use in this game ends up on the testing bench for LE/Mill, and most of the true military gear in not available to the private sector. Lets face it, we are the civilians with limited access to equipment. I am not a real fan of the "idea" of "Trooper Class". Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the people who want to be the Trooper Class, I just don't think "3gun, the game" is the right place for it. It is sending the wrong idea about 3gun to the masses, and in some cases rules have to be changed and coarses have to be changed to make Trooper Class fit into the match. I can understand that these shooters want to play too, but the look of fully decked out battle gear in a sea of brightly colored sport shirts is too much. I do like the USPSA general rules of clothing at the match, so it does not look like a bunch of para/military camandos shooting up the countryside. Again, don't get me wrong, I am not against the camo and all the gear, I am just looking from the outside, in.

[Unleashed]

I am not sure how this conversation digressed to the "practicality of three-gun"

Like USPSA & IDPA, 3Gun is a "practical" shooting sport, still married to the martial use of weapons, not basically divorced like High Power, Bullseye, etc.

OK....I will have to say that stating High Power and Bullseye as being "un-married" to the martial use of weapons in one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

Accuracy is the basis for any firearm discipline and those two sports do nothing but emphasize the improtance of accuracy.

It seems like too many people are getting wrapped around the axle about this one. Think, "run what you brung" and the fact that you might not be able to choose your weapon to fight off 5-6 unknowns running at you. Now what are you going to do? It's a competition....if you can't do the job with all the weapons in a "relatively" (that's in quotations for a reason) timely manner, then maybe you should practice more.

Edited October 28, 2005 by Unleashed

[CWG.223]

So, how about that "HOT RE HOLSTERING" huh?