The State Of 3 Gunning

[MikeFoley]

More problem solving on the part of the shooter....you determine which of your firearms will work best and in what combination in a given scenerio.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this sounds great till you have everone running around shooting every stage with their beta mag and not using pistol or shotgun

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great point Steve. Right on! A neat concept might be to limit the number of rounds for each gun that a competitor could take into the shooting area. The RO would know what was allowed. For example only 2 pistol mags, or only 2 rifle mags 30 or less rounds each, what shotgun ammo would fit in and on the shotgun, etc.

Edited October 19, 2005 by fomeister

[George]

A neat concept might be to limit the number of rounds for each gun that a competitor could take into the shooting area. The RO would know what was allowed. For example only 2 pistol mags, or only 2 rifle mags 30 or less rounds each, what shotgun ammo would fit in and on the shotgun, etc

RM3G did a nice take on this in 2003. Rifle/Pistol stage. Rifle was limited to 20 rounds max and pistol was allowed as the goto when dry, or even as the only gun used. A couple folks in open shot the whole stage with a red dot pistol, some used the rifle on all the longer targets with a single (hoped) A and hit each close up paper with a fast pair from the pistol. Some used hybrid methods that defied description. Did I mention that you also hauled a 30 lb ammo can up the embankment and with you through the positions ;-)

Yeah, RM3G is the match to emulate. It already provides the physical component Zak is calling for to all of us outa-shape flatlanders trying to move fast at 7k altitude ;-)

--

Regards,

[Sestock]

I'll stick to USPSA matches. No need to learn new rules for each match.

[SinistralRifleman]

Personally I like total time scoring...if someone screws up badly, it should hurt them for the whole match. If someone brings unreliable equipment and it takes them twice as long to shoot a stage because their gun didn't work, it should hurt them for the whole match. If there can only be one or two long range rifle stages out of 8-10, anything other than total time scoring marginalizes those long range stages. Bring equipment that works 100%, don't screw up, and you will be fine...most of the people I hear complaining about total time scoring use equipment with narrow operating ranges to gain some marginal increased performance, or they lack confidence in their own abilities. The few times I shot total time matches where my equipment broke and it cost me, I made damn sure all my equipment worked the next time. The other reason I like total time scoring is it is incredibly simple

More problem solving on the part of the shooter....you determine which of your firearms will work best and in what combination in a given scenerio.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this sounds great till you have everone running around shooting every stage with their beta mag and not using pistol or shotgun

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't shoot close steel targets with rifle...stage design will force you transition. Or we say in the stage description "Shooter must fire at least one round of long gun and one round of side arm, failure to do so is a 20 second procedural"....stage design and descriptions solve a lot of problems we don't need to create rules for. Half the stages at our 2005 match were run like this, allowing the shooter more free thought in what they do is a good thing IMHO...at the same time I know it screwed with some people because they are used to being told exactly what to do and when.

If people don't want to use shotguns at all, that doesn't bother me. From what I have been seeing amongst other groups of shooters and on other forums, many more people would be interested in "multi-gun" shooting if shotgun was not a required component. They do not use a shotgun on duty, don't own a shotgun, and/or have no desire to purchase one simply for the sake of playing a "game." That said if someone has one, is proficient with it, and wishes to use it on the appropriate targets, I think they should be able to.

Edited October 19, 2005 by SinistralRifleman

[kellyn]

Excellent replies and much food for thought. Some more commentary:

1) Allowing shooters to pick whatever weapon/drop shotgun?

If there were no flying clay and I was not required to use a shotgun, I would not even bring one. Instead of dropping shotguns, I would rather see more flying clay and more diversity in the shotgun stages.

Shotgun shooting is a big challenge and could be an even bigger one. I'm for mixing up shotgun with some sporting clays style action along with shooting slugs, knocking over steel and loading fast.

Antiquated weapon? Perhaps. But don't break into my house.

2) Replace shotgun with subgun? C'mon.

3) Replace shotgun with sniper/long range rifle?

Interesting but it fails on the local level. Most facilites cannot put together a decent rifle stage much less a sniper rifle match.

4) USPSA being unfriendly to the outlaws?

I will pick up the gauntlet and defend USPSA on this one. USPSA has had extensive coverage of several outlaw 3 gun matches in Front Sight. There have been articles discussing the pros and cons of the various scoring systems, etc. etc. Mike Voigt is trying to standardize HeMan/Heavy Metal and equipment rules so USPSA is in line with the other matches (which are not consistent among themselves). I appreciate that USPSA can be non responsive and slow moving. And I would agree with the statement that the outlaw matches can be more fun than USPSA 3 Gun but give USPSA a bit of a break.

I would also have to agree that diversity has lead to a host of innovation and free thinking. Would the USPSA tent end this? I don't know.

5) Hot reholstering?

I know the tactically oriented guys love it and I don't mind doing it but face it, it's going to lead to people shooting themselves. Hot reholstering with race guns with 1-2 lbs or even 3-4 lbs or even Glock triggers IS going to lead to a AD.

[tewlman]

I'll stick to USPSA matches.  No need to learn new rules for each match.

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I'm not opposed to learning new rules or adding new equipment and i dont think that uspsa is or should be the end all of 3gun. however, my only experience other than is the dpms match. i do hope to get to more of the outlaw matches next year and i am sure i will enjoy them as much as the uspsa3gnats.

still, i think its funny that the 3 gun nats has drawn some strong critism, but was sold out and most people have agreed it was a great match. i personally dont feel that every stages has to be multigun to be considered a 3 gun match. If you really want to consider it "real world" would you really use 3 guns in a given situation? who knows, it depends on the situation.

do i think all the outlaw matches should bow down to uspsa and adhere to its rules? No!

as long a safety is strongly followed and the equipment is basically the same, then i am all for each match doing its own thing. in my opinion, thats what makes each one of them popular. uspsa learned a lot since last years match and have changed for the good, even to the point of allowing thigh rigs now(didn't think i would see that, but glad to hear it) let it continue to grow.

scoring: yes it would be nice if every match used the same scoring, but some many people are so opinionated that i doubt it will ever happen. each has its strengths and weaknesses and the people who like their own will probably always do so.

in closing, it is hard (especially on a forum) to come together on this whole rules/ my match is better than yours thing. as a good friend of mine has said, words have no emotion and it is easy to read something totally different that the person writing meant, if you have done so with this post, i appologize, but dont regret anything i have put to word.

[TheFNG]

5) Hot reholstering?

I know the tactically oriented guys love it and I don't mind doing it but face it, it's going to lead to people shooting themselves.  Hot reholstering with race guns with 1-2 lbs or even 3-4 lbs or even Glock triggers IS going to lead to a AD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Negligent shooters will lead to ND's..

this sounds great till you have everone running around shooting every stage with their beta mag and not using pistol or shotgun

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Something wrong with that?

[tewlman]

5) Hot reholstering?

I know the tactically oriented guys love it and I don't mind doing it but face it, it's going to lead to people shooting themselves.  Hot reholstering with race guns with 1-2 lbs or even 3-4 lbs or even Glock triggers IS going to lead to a AD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Negligent shooters will lead to ND's.. ND's?

this sounds great till you have everone running around shooting every stage with their beta mag and not using pistol or shotgun

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Something wrong with that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, that would negate the whole 3 gun idea. if you want to do that, then just host a rifle match.

Edited October 19, 2005 by tewlman

[Sestock]

5) Hot reholstering?

I know the tactically oriented guys love it and I don't mind doing it but face it, it's going to lead to people shooting themselves.  Hot reholstering with race guns with 1-2 lbs or even 3-4 lbs or even Glock triggers IS going to lead to a AD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Negligent shooters will lead to ND's..

this sounds great till you have everone running around shooting every stage with their beta mag and not using pistol or shotgun

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Something wrong with that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An AD normally is not a good thing. But an AD reholstering a hot gun, can be fatal!

[Brian Payne]

This comment coming from a newbie to the sport so please have patience.

I got into three gun because of the fact I was able to "play" with three different weapons at one match. The thought of being "practical" or "tactically correct" never entered my mind because to me this is a game. To say the Shotgun is no longer practical and is an antiquated weapon system is a little closed minded and sort of misses the idea of the "game". Most people don't (can't) have access to sub-guns, and few people want the expense of the precision rifle. Much less having access to ranges that allow you to practice shooting this type of weapon to its ability. I am a full time LEO and in all honesty, after shooting some of these matches I must admit that I am rethinking my thoughts on the shotgun being inferior to the subgun in real life applications.

I shoot the Standard (limited) division due to the fact I didn't want the added expense of optics. I understand you can get the Simmons Pro Diamond for around $50.00, but I see a lot of $700.00 + Acogs and such. I have looked through both and have my own opinion as to the advanages of one over the other. Allow some shooters to keep it simple, and as inexpensive as possible. Still able to have fun playing the game.

I like the idea of power factors but only because I like to play the game on a level playing field. That is the reason I like the idea of Heavy Metal. 20 round magazines, .308 caliber or larger rifle(no optics because we are old school in this division), 8+1 12 ga. pump shotgun (again - old school), and .45 caliber handguns with magazines of any capacity but only loaded to 8 rounds (don't want the single stack to be at a disadvantage). Keep Heavy Metal a seperate catagory.

For the rest of the divisions keep the major/minor type of scoring.

Score whatever way is the easiest and quickest. I like the IDPA type of scoring because it is easy and uncomplicated. The more you miss, the more your score goes down the crapper.

I shot the DPMS Tri-gun Challenge and the USPSA-Nationals this year. Both were different styles of scoring, and different types of shoots. Had a blast at both. Just because they were different didn't make one better than the other. Just different. Different isn't always a bad thing.

[SinistralRifleman]

Regarding hot reholstering...with modern daily carry or field suitable holsters I don't think it is really a issue. Perhaps a minimum trigger pull weight needs to be specified for safety too? If someone shoots themselves in the process of reholstering, they've broken several critical safety rules, the most important one being have your finger off the trigger. You are right in that we do have to play to the lowest common denominator to some degree...but do the lowest common denominator really shoot competitively?

I've taken quite a few "tactical" firearms classes, run as hot ranges with hot transitions, that have included shooters much less skilled than the average practical action shooter, and with a ratio of one teacher to 10 to 20 students no one has managed to shoot themselves yet. I think it would probably be even easier to keep more skilled people from shooting themsleves with a 1:1 shooter to Range Officer ratio.

What we are seeing here is a critical difference of opinion on the nature of firearms and what competitions are trying to simulate. If we want competitions to simply be shooting galleries we should forgo the humanoid targets and scenerio based stages.

[tewlman]

This comment coming from a newbie to the sport so please have patience.

I got into three gun because of the fact I was able to "play" with three different weapons at one match.  The thought of being "practical" or "tactically correct" never entered my mind because to me this is a game.  To say the Shotgun is no longer practical and is an antiquated weapon system is a little closed minded and sort of misses the idea of the "game".  Most people don't (can't) have access to sub-guns, and few people want the expense of the precision rifle.  Much less having access to ranges that allow you to practice shooting this type of weapon to its ability.  I am a full time LEO and in all honesty, after shooting some of these matches I must admit that I am rethinking my thoughts on the shotgun being inferior to the subgun in real life applications.

I shoot the Standard (limited) division due to the fact I didn't want the added expense of optics.  I understand you can get the Simmons Pro Diamond for around $50.00, but I see a lot of $700.00 + Acogs and such.  I have looked through both and have my own opinion as to the advanages of one over the other.  Allow some shooters to keep it simple, and as inexpensive as possible.  Still able to have fun playing the game.

I like the idea of power factors but only because I like to play the game on a level playing field.  That is the reason I like the idea of Heavy Metal.  20 round magazines, .308 caliber or larger rifle(no optics because we are old school in this division), 8+1 12 ga. pump shotgun (again - old school), and .45 caliber handguns with magazines of any capacity but only loaded to 8 rounds (don't want the single stack to be at a disadvantage).  Keep Heavy Metal a seperate catagory.

For the rest of the divisions keep the major/minor type of scoring.

Score whatever way is the easiest and quickest.  I like the IDPA type of scoring because it is easy and uncomplicated.  The more you miss, the more your score goes down the crapper.

I shot the DPMS Tri-gun Challenge and the USPSA-Nationals this year.  Both were different styles of scoring, and different types of shoots.  Had a blast at both.  Just because they were different didn't make one better than the other.  Just different.  Different isn't always a bad thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

+1 on everthing you said Brian. Btw, it was good to meet and shoot with you this weekend.

[Brian Payne]

Same here. Hope to see you at another match soon.

[TheFNG]

5) Hot reholstering?

I know the tactically oriented guys love it and I don't mind doing it but face it, it's going to lead to people shooting themselves.  Hot reholstering with race guns with 1-2 lbs or even 3-4 lbs or even Glock triggers IS going to lead to a AD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Negligent shooters will lead to ND's.. ND's?

this sounds great till you have everone running around shooting every stage with their beta mag and not using pistol or shotgun

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Something wrong with that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, that would negate the whole 3 gun idea. if you want to do that, then just host a rifle match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An AD or accidental discharge is the result of equipment failure outside of the shooters control.

An ND or neglegent discharge is the result of shooter error and "neglegence" IE reholstering your 1lb triggered 1911 with your finger in the trigger.

[MikeFoley]

From someone who carries and handles hot firearms every single day: Hot holstering on the clock in a competition by people of different skill levels is asking for trouble.

Look at the competent shooters who were DQ'ed when speed unloading was required in 2004. Look at the really experienced shooters who AD, break the 180, drop guns, ground a hot gun with the safety off, etc., at many major matches and tell me we want people sticking their hot gun and their shirt tail in a holster on the clock. What about those who miss the holster altogether?

I like 3Gun, but I do not want to be shot, or watch someone else shoot themself three feet away over a game where it could have been avoided.

I have and will holster hot guns, even on the clock, but wouldn't want to RO 200 strangers doing it.

JMHO

[Brian Payne]

Hot holstering:

Easy to accomplish and extremely safe. Until you add stress and time constraints.

I don't care how accomplished of a shooter you are. Add the stress of a match environment + clock running + possible movement + going for another weapon + poor footing = AD and possible injury.

Right now non shooters (like people living right next to ranges that have just moved there knowing the range was there but are now sick of the noise) are looking for any reason to shut ranges down. One or two injuries or worse, good luck keeping that range open.

I like the idea but I just don't see it as practical.

[tewlman]

i have to agree with everone else here. hot reholstering is just a bad idea. it would not be long before people started to get hurt, even experienced shooters. i doubt that 8lb triggers would even make a difference

[SinistralRifleman]

hot reholstering is a lot less unsafe than various other tasks that have been required at various matches. See if you can guess which matches they were at...

Running over wet rocks while it's raining in a river bed while shooting a handgun...I did fall on this stage and managed not to ND or drop my gun

Jumping across a shallow stream to a sharp embankment while shooting a handgun

climbing a 20 foot tower carrying a rifle (unloaded) on a sling with high winds and slippery steps on the ladder.

driving a vehicle and shooting at the same time

driving a vehicle backwards and shooting at the same time

riding in a vehicle and shooting a course of fire with the RO turning me in the direction I need to shoot.

...these are just the ones I can think of right now. Now I am not complaining about having to do any of them, the unique situations at these matches is what makes them interesting. The difference between these situations and the hot reholstering of a handgun, is reholstering is totally under control of the shooter.

[Garryowen]

being so worried about AD/ND's and hot re-holstering.... Maybe we shouldn't use real guns at all then, maybe AIr-Soft is the answer...

I'm not trying to start anything, but there is NO WAY to make this 100% "fool-proof" and still use real guns. This is why we have RO's and make un-safe people leave the range when they cross that line.

[MikeFoley]

being so worried about AD/ND's and hot re-holstering.... Maybe we shouldn't use real guns at all then, maybe AIr-Soft is the answer...

I'm not trying to start anything, but there is NO WAY to make this 100% "fool-proof" and still use real guns. This is why we have RO's and make un-safe people leave the range when they cross that line.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think most of the guys here would be OK with hot holstering themselves, but feel it isn't worth the risk having everyone do it. The match is no less fun grounding a gun, nor is it any less challenging. Unsafe people should go home, but not bleeding or dead. OK Darwin applies everywhere else, and stupid should hurt, but not at the expense of the shooting sports.

[George]

I think most of the guys here would be OK with hot holstering themselves, but feel it isn't worth the risk having everyone do it. The match is no less fun grounding a gun, nor is it any less challenging. Unsafe people should go home, but not bleeding or dead. OK Darwin applies everywhere else, and stupid should hurt, but not at the expense of the shooting sports

Yessir, that is exactly what is happening here. Individuals have no problem doing something on an individual basis and being certain they can do it properly under any circumstance. This is what personal pride is all about ;-)

I can also assure anyone out there that my skills with a motorcycle are world class and that if you ride on one as a passenger while I am at the helm, you are as safe as a baby in a carriage. But does that take care of all the exigencies that can actually arise while on a ride in the real world? When I raced in the AFM way back when, we didn't allow passengers except on the sidecar rigs. Things that extend liability issues aren't a good idea IMHO.

Hot re-holstering on the clock is perfectly safe when I do it. Hot re-holstering on the clock is dangerous as heck on a purely statistical basis and should not be done at matches because of this fact. Both statements are true! Which one would you want to base a match and your personal liability on as MD? Which one would be easier to get good insurance coverage for if the safety practices were fully scrutinized by the carrier?

Edited October 19, 2005 by George

[MikeFoley]

George,

Right on!

[George]

Some thoughts on what 3gun is all about.

3gun/Multigun is competitive shooting.

I don't tend to look at competitive shooting as any reality based training scenario that I am attending to make myself better at any situation that should arise in my actual life. Yes, I have guns for defense and yes, I get better with them the more I compete. But that is not why I compete.

I compete because it is racing! I like to race and I used to do it with motorcycles, now I do it with guns. When I raced motorcycles, it was NOT with the intention of getting so good that I could handle potentially deadly traffic situations safely when confronted with them. Some of that occured and that was a nice side effect, but not why I wanted to get onto a racetrack. I raced motorcycles to go as fast as possible on them and I got into organized racing to do it in more controlled and safe situations than could be found in public (analogy here is public shooting ranges and the basic stand and shoot lines we all probably started on in some manner).

Racing has it's needs and training has it's needs. I do not think that they are that compatable, but they do bleed across a bit. Being able to push motorcycle tires in turns on pavement is a requirement to go fast on the track, but it should not be practiced on the street and it isn't going to help you avoid accidents there either. But if you can push tires in corners safely, you are indeed one heck of a rider compared to the average streetgoing bike jockey much the same as a USPSA A/B shooter is a shooting god compared to the average joe plinking on the public line. That is an accomplishment and that is what I am in the "game" for.

Let's face it folks, unless you are on a SWAT team, or on your way to the sand box, it is a "game". This game is all about going as fast as possible while still staying on the track (analogy to staying on the track here is scoring 90%+ of the available stage points and not incurring misses and penalties). The goal of staying in racing is to keep going faster and faster and faster and faster, ad infinitum ;-)

The things I liked about motorcycle racing were doing stoppies going into the corners, sliding the tires while in the corners and doing power wheelies coming out of corners not because it was fun to do those things, but because that's what happens when you go WFO and controlling them instinctively when they happen as a side effect of going fast and not really caring as it's happening is an awesome thing, just like seeing your sights lift and settle on their own as you burn through a stage in the "zone" knowing you can do no wrong at any speed :-)

JMHO about training vs. competition and real world motorcycling vs. going real fast on the racetrack.

--

Regards,

Edited October 19, 2005 by George

[kellyn]

I've taken quite a few "tactical" firearms classes, run as hot ranges with hot transitions, that have included shooters much less skilled than the average practical action shooter, and with a ratio of one teacher to 10 to 20 students no one has managed to shoot themselves yet. I think it would probably be even easier to keep more skilled people from shooting themsleves with a 1:1 shooter to Range Officer ratio.

What we are seeing here is a critical difference of opinion on the nature of firearms and what competitions are trying to simulate. If we want competitions to simply be shooting galleries we should forgo the humanoid targets and scenerio based stages.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been to a few tactical firearms classes as well. And there was never any sort of pressure whilst reholstering. A COMPLETELY different environment from a match.

Remember the only qualification for entering any 3 gun match - be it Ft. Benning, North American Tactical, USPSA, Cav Arms, SMM3G, etc. is being able to get your entry fee in on time. That places a lot of pressure on match directors to make their stages/rules as safe as possible. There are shooters of all sorts of skill levels - pushing themselves as hard as they can. In that enviro, hot holstering is just a disaster waiting to happen.

Even as a "tactical" matter, what sort of realistic scenario requires fast reholstering to survive? What real world skill is fast reholstering testing?

[Zak Smith]

Hot holstering:  Easy to accomplish and extremely safe. Until you add stress and time constraints.

hot reholstering is just a bad idea.

The same could be said for drawing from a holster or shooting on the move... under stress and time constraints.

I got into three gun because of the fact I was able to "play" with three different weapons at one match. The thought of being "practical" or "tactically correct" never entered my mind because to me this is a game.

What's the "P" in USPSA & IPSC?

Like Russell said, if this is "bullet golf", let's shoot at different size bullseyes, not humanoid silhouettes. And not shoot from vehicles or helicopters. Heck, why even use a holster?

Even as a "tactical" matter, what sort of realistic scenario requires fast reholstering to survive? What real world skill is fast reholstering testing?

Doing something with both hands right after shooting your pistol, perhaps.