The State Of 3 Gunning

[CWG.223]

Don't do away with shotguns! At the advice of a few TROOPER CLASS shooters from the CAVARMs 2005 match, I just bought a new Bennelli.

Edited October 19, 2005 by CWG.223

[SinistralRifleman]

Let's face it folks, unless you are on a SWAT team, or on your way to the sand box, it is a "game". This game is all about going as fast as possible while still staying on the track (analogy to staying on the track here is scoring 90%+ of the available stage points and not incurring misses and penalties). The goal of staying in racing is to keep going faster and faster and faster and faster, ad infinitum ;-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The probability is you are correct...most of us never will use our firearms in a deadly encounter, I personally hope I never do. If I ever do have to I wish to be prepared as best as possible though. This guy probably hoped he'd never get into a gunfight either http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21463

To me part of owning firearms, and carrying them daily, imparts a moral responsibility to be skilled at arms and continually improve those skills. Competitive shooting is one of the best venues to regularly practice skill at arms and gun handling (notice I didn't say tactics...that's why I take classes). Yes shooting is fun, and competitions are fun, but even if it wasn't as fun I would probably participate just as much to continually hone my skills.

If we aren't practicing a martial art...shooting competitively lacks some value to me as an individual, and for R&D purposes for both the products we make and those of companies we are friendly with that we use.

Even as a "tactical" matter, what sort of realistic scenario requires fast reholstering to survive? What real world skill is fast reholstering testing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about getting your rifle going and back in the fight?

[SinistralRifleman]

Don't do away with shotguns! At the advice of a few  TROOPER CLASS shooters from the CAVARMs 2005 match, I just bought a new Bennelli.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'd still be able to use it...just wouldn't be required. There may be some stages where it could be to your advantage to use shotgun and transition after you shoot it empty.

[George]

One thing I got out of motorcycle racing is the ability to deal with things instinctively that would have average human riders on their a$$es. I cannot count the times in normal traffic situations where my ability to recover from a front/rear wheel slide instinctively, or lever out of a potential high-side during emergency avoidance maneuvers has let me ride on safely where other mere mortal riders would be waiting for an ambulance instead (if they were that lucky).

The old racing adage "if you have to think about it, you are already out in the haybales" is going to be just as true in a "tight situation" as it is on a racetrack ;-)

Edited October 19, 2005 by George

[TheFNG]

The old racing adage "if you have to think about it, you are already out in the haybales" is going to be just as true in a "tight situation" as it is on a racetrack ;-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So practicing transitioning to your pistol and from your pistol without having to think about it could save your life in a gunfight some day?

Edited October 19, 2005 by George

[George]

So practicing transitioning to your pistol and from your pistol without having to think about it could save your life in a "tight situation" some day?

Of course proficiency with anything may come in handy someday. But I somehow kinda doubt that my ability to re-holster instinctively will be the real deciding factor if I am in a "tight situation" compared to my ability to make solid hits real fast on multiple targets instinctively in the intense few moments most "tight situations" happen in.

[Brian Payne]

When drawing your weapon, even under stress, there is no chance of having your finger on the trigger as the weapon is grabbed. Holstering on the other hand, could easily leave your finger on the trigger while trying to reholster. No further picture needs to be drawn. Shooting on the move can be dangerous, that is why we have the 180 rule. There are rules in place to punish people for unsafe gunhandling with your finger on the trigger, holstering is one of the few times a RO won't have enough time to step in and stop you before someone possibly gets hurt.

If the P in USPSA would stand for real life practical situations - then when I am faced with several rooms containing 14 hostile targets, I sure as hell am not going to go in alone, even with three small arms. Grenade comes to mind maybe, or air strike, or Tank, or - whatever. In competition we do not deal in practical, real life situations. We deal in situations set up by match directors to challenge our small arms weapons handling skills.

The biggest challenge is in coming up with scenarios that are fun, safe for all levels of shooters, and allow us to be able to use weapons commonly found in your closet or purchased for not a large amount of money. The shotgun I used for the Nationals I purchased from the local pawn shop for $200.00 and it came with three barrels. $60.00 in parts and I was good to go. I have to be honest and tell you that I sucked with that shotgun, but it did not fail me, and I had fun. I will be using this same weapon next year.

Just some thoughts. YMMV

[Garryowen]

When drawing your weapon, even under stress, there is no chance of having your finger on the trigger as the weapon is grabbed.........

Just some thoughts.  YMMV

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not true... The new Blackhawk holster is released my using your trigger finger to depress and thus disengage the retention. In classes (thankfully using air-soft) where close engagements (force on force) were being taught/practiced, several students (under stress) pulled trigger on their Glocks while drawing the pistol. Again, there were not first time shooters and some were even LEO's. The common denominator was they were not used to the new holster.

As far as Shotguns go, I enjoy shooting the shotgun and even if it becomes an optional weapon, I'll shoot mine, BUT I like the idea of it being your gun fight and being able to engage it as you see fit at a match.

Edited October 19, 2005 by Garryowen

[Still Praying]

STOP IT

What in the world is going on here? I tryed to read this thread and couldn't. The more I read the madder I got. It sounded to me like everyone wants to change USPSA 3-Gun to something else. Multi gun, Classifiing Multi guns, Outlaw with hot pistols etc, etc, etc. This stuff is crazy. I don't see anything wrong with classifing all three guns, but Multi gun? Leave it alone, your going to mess it up.

There are other threads that talk about getting new shooters in the shooting sports, but what about keeping shooters that you already have? I don't know how many shooters feel the same way I do. I think Mr. Voigt and the BOD's needs to ask us USPSA members(You know us, the regular shooters A, B, C, and D shooters that make up the majority of USPSA) before they make any changes. I know changes can be good, but I think the changes are being made buy and for the BIG DAWGS and not for the regular shooters.

I for one think we need some small changes and Multi Gun is one. Leave Multi Gun for the Outlaws and whoever wants to shoot it. This is not USPSA/IPSC to me. If I feel the need to shoot Multi gun I'll go and shoot it. Don't make all of the sports the same. Give us a choice. Oh thats right we don't have a choice now.

I have signed up to shoot Ft. Benning's match and the only reasons I did are Max's free 4hr class and it's here in my home town. If it was somewhere else I wouldn't give it a second thought. I think it's going to be cool to shoot a major 3 Gun match (of some sort) on this side of the earth and not wish I could go out west or up north to shoot one. I will enjoy seeing most of the BIG DAWGS shoot for a change. I haven't seen many at the Area 6 3 Gun. Oh theres not enough money there.

You want more shooters in USPSA 3 gun? Then keep it kinda simple, but challenging. Don't make it so you have to carry so much equipment on you for one stage. Pistol, 4 Mags, 6 Shotgun speed loaders and 3 Rifle mags, Where is it going to stop? I'm 44 years old, 6ft and 200 pounds. Not to old, big or week to carry all of this stuff, but there is a point where it's not fun anymore. I carry this much stuff at work, I don't want to on the weekend trying to get away form work.

I hope I haven't offended anyone or sounded like I was putting off on anyones shooting sport. I just want USPSA 3 Gun to stay fun and I want to play. It drives me up the wall thinking about the 3 Gun Nationals being so far away and I couldn't go. Even if there was some Multi Gun stuff going on. Now I hear it will be in Oregon next year. Move it around alittle so us poor guys can play. I have a 4 wheeler, a Remington 30 06, TC 44 MAG, a truck and 500 acers of prime land to hunt. Maybe I need to leave this sport to the rich guys and just go hunting. It would be cheaper to hunt and go to Afica hunting once a year than this.

The state of 3 Gun is going out the window if we don't stop it.

Ronnie

[chp5]

I'm 44 years old, 6ft and 200 pounds. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only 200? Just joking Ronnie! Good points.

It's not what the cool kids are saying, but I for one like USPSA 3 gun matches. I like having to shoot A's with a .223 rifle. I like power factors.

Yes, the scoring could be simpler, but I leave that to the higher minds. I commend the USPSA board for modifying/updating the rules. When you run an organization by committee, change is rarely simple or quick.

Also, don't forget that the USPSA President is one of the best Open 3 gunners around. He knows a thing or two about the game and he and the Board are changing things for the better.

I agree with George that standardizing equipment rules across all matches would benefit competitors. However, I don’t think that all the match rules/scoring should be the same. Variety is the spice.

I do get sick of the USPSA 3 gun bashing by some shooters (although I understand Greg O’s frustrations). If you don’t like it, then get involved and make positive suggestions. Otherwise, don’t shoot USPSA 3G and keep your negativity to yourself.

As a note, the Ft. Benning match will have power factors (for pistol only) and USPSA-like scoring. That sounds like fun!

[Still Praying]

Thanks for your reply Cy. I almost deleted the post all together. It realy sounds like I'm whining, and your right the cool kids are not saying to many good things about USPSA 3 gun these days. Your also right about Mr Voigt being one of the best in three gun, that is my point. He's on top of the sport and knows how he wants it to go, but has he considered what the A, B, C and D shooters want?

USPSA has a good thing going here (DVC) and I don't want to see it go down the drain just because some of the big dawgs want something more. It sounds like he's doing his job and looking for improvements for our sport to get more members. I'm just not sure he's going in the right direction.

OK 206 pounds you busted me out, and 20 of it is on top of my mags. Thats why I shoot open. I need the big sticks to hold it in place.

See ya at the Area 6 3 Gun Ronnie

[Zak Smith]

What in the world is going on here? I tryed to read this thread and couldn't. The more I read the madder I got. It sounded to me like everyone wants to change USPSA 3-Gun to something else.

This thread is about the "State of 3Gun", not necessarily changing USPSA 3Gun.

The assumption that the discussion ought to be USPSA-3Gun-centric is frustrating to me and others.

regards

[Zak Smith]

If the P in USPSA would stand for real life practical situations - then when I am faced with several rooms containing 14 hostile targets, I sure as hell am not going to go in alone,

IMO---

The"P" is about the types of skills exercised, not about the scenarios per se. (Scnearios can make it more FUN, though.)

If we were limited to only practicing for likely self-defense situtations, we'd would be limited to 1-2 targets and about 5 rounds.

regards

[Brian Payne]

Zak Smith

Point taken.

I also agree that this topic is not a "bash the USPSA 3-gun" topic. This is just a group of people sharing ideas to try to help the world of 3-gun become better and stronger. I think we all have the best interests at heart.

I also do not get the feeling that "the big dawgs" are out to change anything to meet their needs only. I for one am a very inexperianced 3-gun competitor. At the DPMS Tri-gun and the USPSA Nationals I received help and advice from countless "Big Dawgs". They did so without any sort of attitude. This type of behavior is what will keep new shooters coming back and allow 3-gunning to grow.

[George]

If the USPSA Multi-gun nats wasn't what they wanted to do, the top guys would not have almost all been there last weekend. The prize table was not the reason as it was just OK compared to matches that pride themselves on their prize layout.

They were there to compete with their peers straight up, that's what I think. Just the same as I was with my peers and so on down the classification line. I think that the top shooters are interested in many of the same things the rest of the pack is and that it is a two way street about what is good for who here. Win, Win is what I see if there is some form of compatability across many matches of diverse management ethic.

Trooper seems to be something of an orphan at the moment such as HM was 3-4 years ago. Give it time and it will play on a lot more screens if it was meant to.

I think divisions and classifications within them are a good thing and one of the things that makes USPSA unique. One of the guys in my squad at the 2005 US3G had a real nice match, but felt that overall he wasn't gonna measure up to the big boys. I told him not to be surprised if he did well with how consistent he was being. He won B Tac and placed 11th OA in Tac (Nice going Greg, I told ya!). Surprised the heck outa him. The look on his face as he was called for 1st was what exactly what this sport is all about for me.

Anyone remember the old intro for ABC Wide World of Sports. The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat. These are the reasons I compete. It all goes back to racing again for me. Matt Burkett reminds me of nothing so much as the composite of all the top riders in racing from back when I walked the paddock in leathers. Those guys were just as aware of every nuance of machine and track as our shooting GM's are when they approach a stage and burn it to the ground ;-)

Shooting against their division peers is great fun for the D. C and even B shooters. B and above are looking to see how they stack up against the top dawgs but will always be mightily pleased with a decent class finish. Measurement in smaller increments than top down is a fun and healthy process and that is what National Championship level events are all about, the chance to shoot as a contender in your class and still compare yourself to the big dawgs in the OA :-)

I like division classifications as they give the rest of us somethiing tangible to strive mightily for as we slowly crawl up the rungs towards that mythical GM card.

--

Regards,

[grim death]

Hi Ronnie-

As I read your post I can understand your frustration. The 3GN was my 4th match.I bought my first pistol and shot my first match about 1 1/2 yrs ago and got my rifle and shotgun for 3gunning 1 year ago.So I am very new to the sport.

As I said I can understand your frustration but I think you are wrong on several points:

1. Mike Voigt has asked members ( GMs thru Ds ) how to what they think about better our sport.

2. The changes that have been made and are being made are more for the beginner and intermediate shooter because Mr. Voigt and the BOD know that is the majority of members and that we also have to bring in new shooters.

3.No big dawgs at Area 6 3gun - I do know a couple of the top guys and why they didnt go, some was because there was not enough money to warrent going and some had other commitments.

Most the top shooters like it when someone talks to them ( when they are getting ready to shoot a stage )about their gear, how to shoot or any other questions you have. Mr. Voigt has no problem with people talkink to him before and after matches about what they think should be happening with our sport.

Great people that are good shooters like Beven Grams started me in pistol and 3gunning and does whatever he can to promote the sport. Mike Voigt teaches new and experianced shooters alike as does several other shooters.

I know for a fact that if you aproach Mike Voigt,Bennie Cooley Matt Burkett, Taran Butler.Bruce Piatt or any other top shooter they would listen to any ideas that you have to better the sport and try to help you. So if you have any ideas talk to Mike Voigt at the Fort Benning match or e-mail him(he does read them and this IS YOUR SPORT ALSO).

I send this post respectfully,

DON AUGUSTINE

Edited October 19, 2005 by grim death

[TMC]

Wow, that’s allot of opinions. Sound like most folks want ALL the matches to be run the same way.

What’s so wrong with all of the “outlaw” matches and the USPSA multi-gun being run the way they are now? They all seem to work. I’ve shot some and had fun at all of them and it never occurred to me to change the rules or format. I know what I had entered, read the rules and showed up ready to shoot.

Don’t even talk about not wanting to buy equipment for some different class or rule at one match or another, I mean, c’mon most of us have WAY too much money invested in shooting toys, traveling across the country shooting matches in different states, paying for gas, airfare, hotels and restaurants. If money is the issue take up jogging or bird watching. Besides, most folks who have the gear for 3-gun can find a class it will fit into without having to buy something new.

Leave it alone, variety is good. If all these matches have the same format it may end up like most local clubs, with the same folks doing stages and the matches seeming the same each month. (the last comment is by no way a smack at the folks who devote time to setting up matches, I greatly appreciate them and their devotion to doing a job few, myself included, are willing to do. It’s just a fact)

My .02

[Still Praying]

Thanks guys for not hammering me to hard. I try to be a little more conservative than my first post on this thread. I guess 3:30pm is not the right time to add a post about something you don't like.

In referfence to the big dawgs. I wasn't talking about all of them. I shoot with a few of them on regular bases at regular matches, but not so many in 3 gun. Now don't get me wrong here I don't think any one of them knows my name, so we're not shooting partners or anything. I'm just lucky enough to see them shoot pistol once in a while. I'm like you Don I think some of these guys and gails are not just the best shooters, but some of the best poeple too. See my post in (WOW Fl open 05) or something like that. I think it will explain how I feel about them.

Sorry for the drift.

Back to 3 gun

Every since I've started 3 gun I've wondered how far behind them I realy am. I haven't shot any matches with a lot of them. So I don't have a clue. The 3 gun nationals have been on the other side of the earth every year. I know a lot more guys around here would go if they could drive to it. I don't like flying with guns and amo.

Now back to "The State Of 3 Gunning"

For what its wourth I agree with most all you said TMC. (LEAVE IT ALONE - VARIETY)

Ronnie

Edited October 20, 2005 by Still Praying

[Platinum]

Wow, that’s allot of opinions. Sound like most folks want ALL the matches to be run the same way. 

What’s so wrong with all of the “outlaw” matches and the USPSA multi-gun being run the way they are now?  They all seem to work.  I’ve shot some and had fun at all of them and it never occurred to me to change the rules or format.  I know what I had entered, read the rules and showed up ready to shoot.

Don’t even talk about not wanting to buy equipment for some different class or rule at one match or another, I mean, c’mon most of us have WAY too much money invested in shooting toys, traveling across the country shooting matches in different states, paying for gas, airfare, hotels and restaurants.  If money is the issue take up jogging or bird watching.  Besides, most folks who have the gear for 3-gun can find a class it will fit into without having to buy something new.

Leave it alone, variety is good.  If all these matches have the same format it may end up like most local clubs, with the same folks doing stages and the matches seeming the same each month.  (the last comment is by no way a smack at the folks who devote time to setting up matches, I greatly appreciate them and their devotion to doing a job few, myself included, are willing to do.  It’s just a fact)

My .02

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TMC,

You are correct.

Those that suggest that USPSA should be the model or governing body for how 3 (multi) gun is played forget that many of the biggest and most popular 3 gun matches (e.g., North American Tactical ) are not USPSA sponsored matches at all.

The way the game is played is a product that we who put on matches market and the market will choose the products it likes.

We're way past the Model T being the only car for sale and you can have it in any color you want as long as it's black.

Variety wins.

[MKuhn]

RIGHT ON TMC

And for what its worth (which ain’t much) hanging on the moniker “outlaw” makes it even more appealing to me.

Mell

Edited October 20, 2005 by MKuhn

[George]

Interesting point to consider here.

2003 NAT3GC = 160 competitors

2005 RM3G = 197 competitors

2005 DPMS Tri-Gun = 201 Competitors

2005 US3G = 228 competitors

2005 SMM3G = 282 competitors

The US3G is not a small match, in fact it is the second largest 3 gun match going. Only the SMM3G gets more competitors. The US3G has had over 200 competitors per year for many years. I would NOT say the "Outlaw" three gun matches are the bigger and better attended 3 gun matches out there. Far from it in fact. Only SMM3G draws more shooters.

USPSA Multi-gun seems to be just as popular as any other flavor judging by the numbers.

The point I am trying to make here is that neither flavor is a small segment of the market. Both USPSA and the IMG markets seem to split the clientele right down the middle when you take into account the number of USPSA Area 3 gun matches also run on a yearly basis. Most USPSA Area matches get 80-125+ competitors which is usually about the same as the DPMS Tri-gun in the past or the MGM IronMan for number of competitors/match size.

There seems to be room for both styles of match in the marketplace if I see things correctly here.

--

Regards,

Edited October 20, 2005 by George

[Bronco]

From what I know of the RM3G group they aren't tring to be the biggest just the best. Its quality not quantity, they fill up at a lower number because of the stage designs and the time it takes to shoot each one and so you don't spend time waiting because they over booked. I'm not connected with this match other than I've shot it the last 3 years and know some of the people who do such a fine job putting it on. Keith

[Chuck Anderson]

Not true... The new Blackhawk holster is released my using your trigger finger to depress and thus disengage the retention. In classes (thankfully using air-soft) where close engagements (force on force) were being taught/practiced, several students (under stress) pulled trigger on their Glocks while drawing the pistol. Again, there were not first time shooters and some were even LEO's. The common denominator was they were not used to the new holster.

To start with, these must be some poorly trained LEO's. The Blackhawk CQC lines the trigger finger up along the frame, not the trigger on the draw. If they're ND'ing with this holster they need a lot more training.

As far as hot holstering, stay the heck away. LEO training and most tactical training stress reholstering slowly. The emphasis is on not putting the gun away too fast. There are very few times when we reholster under any kind of speed emphasis. I have personally seen people ND while trying to reholster under stress. In both cases it resulted, fortunately, in ruined pants only and no damage to flesh. However, I'm personally aware of one in a neighboring jurisdiction that nearly resulted in death from a nearly severed femoral artery.

[Chuck Anderson]

As far as the merging of USPSA and the "outlaw" matches. I think this would be a bad idea. They both represent a different group of people. The folks that shoot USPSA tend to like more structure. The outlaw matches tend to be a little more free with the rules. While this can be good and promote rapid growth and change, it does come with consequences.

My biggest issues with outlaw matches come in the area of safety. While we'd all like to say that the matches we shoot are safe, I've seen more major safety violations at outlaw matches than at USPSA matches. And I shoot a lot more USPSA matches than outlaw matches. The other thing that I've seen is more inconsistencies in the outlaw matches. As an example, a shooter at the 04 MGM Ironman was climbing the tower. This year they had a rope attached to you. The RO had attached it so that it was looped incorrectly around a support wire. The shooter spent a long time trying to get to the platform. The RO was not interested in giving the shooter a reshoot. Also at some local matches the rules consistency is abysmal. I had a shooter LAMR with people downrange resetting steel. The MD reisntated him with a "stage DQ". This was the second time he pulled out his gun before being told too. I took a year off from shooting that match because I just don't feel safe. Whether you like USPSA or not they do a good job of safety.

[SinistralRifleman]

Lawman,

regarding the ironman match...I think given the length of the stages it is almost impossible to reshoot people.

You are correct that USPSA and outlaw matches attract different types of people.

The ironman match for example, is cool to me because of the insanely high round count and the stages that take up to 10 minutes to shoot. With so many variables in a match like that, you pretty much have to accept the fact there will be some inconsistencies...the amount and type of shooting at ironman is what makes it fun to me. At the same time if someone is more seriously into it as competition, I can easily see how the inconsistencies can drive them mad.