Why not allow a weapon mounted light in production/carry optics?

[Blaize]

3 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@Blaize the reason they do not allow it is that when you permit something in a division like this, you are effectively requiring that thing. Assuming it’s something which provides a significant performance advantage, and 4-6oz of weight up front under the muzzle very much is.

 

We already have enough gear to sling around, and enough money to spend on the sport.

 

And yes, production and carry optics guns have strayed hilariously far from any application of the word practical. But just because the current administration messed that up doesn’t mean we need to push the equipment race even further.

 

thanks for your input sir! You have the best reason s far as to why to not allow them. I can see your side of it here, as then, a guy has to plan to drop 120-150 bucks on his rig on top of everything else. 
 

we won’t get into the money someone might spend on trigger kits and all the other nonsense you can buy, but your right, someone can easily perceive the light as a NEEDED part of the setup.

 

thanks for your input! Hope to keep the discussion going as to why/why not. No one is trying to change the very core of USPSA here guys, just trying to get a perspective from lots of other shooters 

[RJH]

32 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@Blaize the reason they do not allow it is that when you permit something in a division like this, you are effectively requiring that thing. Assuming it’s something which provides a significant performance advantage, and 4-6oz of weight up front under the muzzle very much is.

 

We already have enough gear to sling around, and enough money to spend on the sport.

 

And yes, production and carry optics guns have strayed hilariously far from any application of the word practical. But just because the current administration messed that up doesn’t mean we need to push the equipment race even further.

 

 

 

I am going to have to disagree with your premise a bit here.  If by allowing heavy guns in CO, then everyone needs a heavy gun is true (and maybe it is, that is  a whole different argument), then allowing a guy who has already spent a significant amount of dollars upgrading his glock is screwed.  A light/weight would keep that gun "competitive" at a much lower cost than going to buy a new legion/CZ/Tanfo.  As soon as 59 oz guns and slide cuts for things other than optics were allowed then the "cost too much to add a weight to a glock" argument went out the window.  

 

I am just looking at this logically, with no emotional attachment.  If you have a gun list, a weight limit, and allow hundreds of dollars in frame and slide mods, then an added weight is really no issue.   

Edited July 21, 2020 by RJH

[MemphisMechanic]

@RJH If you look at what the number they chose, we don’t have a weight limit.

 

They simply moved it so high that only an idiot would make their mousefart 9mm gun weigh more than most Limited & Open gun builds, effectively deleting it.

 

However, as the sudden appearance of heavy brass grips for the perfectly balanced Shadow 2 has proven... never underestimate what idiots will do.

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@RJH If you look at what the number they chose, we don’t have a weight limit.

 

They simply moved it so high that only an idiot would make their mousefart 9mm gun weigh more than most Limited & Open gun builds, effectively deleting it.

 

However, as the sudden appearance of heavy brass grips for the perfectly balanced Shadow 2 has proven... never underestimate what idiots will do.

 

 

Agreed,  but when you look at reasons listed for not allowing a weight/light they don't make sense. 

 

Can't be the actual weight, because A there is a weight limit and B most people interested in adding weight (plastic gun shooters) still won't way as much as metal guns

 

Can't be the money because 1500 dollar +out of the box CZs are welcome in that division 

 

Can't be that it would be "too modded" because frames and slides can be cut up pretty much however you want at a considerably higher cost

 

Can't be a competitive advantage because of the imposed weight 

 

Can't be because mods will make people not want to shoot carry Ops, as every time the guns have been allowed to be more moded carry Ops numbers goes up. Remember when it originally had a 10-round MAG limit and 30 or so ounce weight limit and no one shot it? Now it's the most popular division in my area and will probably be the most popular division in the country in the next year or so if it's not already, and all that happened after people got to mod up their guns

 

It makes no logical sense to disallow weights / lights in carry Optics. Which only leaves emotional reasoning, and I can't make a logical argument to fight emotions

 

 

[Blaize]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

Agreed,  but when you look at reasons listed for not allowing a weight/light they don't make sense. 

 

Can't be the actual weight, because A there is a weight limit and B most people interested in adding weight (plastic gun shooters) still won't way as much as metal guns

 

Can't be the money because 1500 dollar +out of the box CZs are welcome in that division 

 

Can't be that it would be "too modded" because frames and slides can be cut up pretty much however you want at a considerably higher cost

 

Can't be a competitive advantage because of the imposed weight 

 

Can't be because mods will make people not want to shoot carry Ops, as every time the guns have been allowed to be more moded carry Ops numbers goes up. Remember when it originally had a 10-round MAG limit and 30 or so ounce weight limit and no one shot it? Now it's the most popular division in my area and will probably be the most popular division in the country in the next year or so if it's not already, and all that happened after people got to mod up their guns

 

It makes no logical sense to disallow weights / lights in carry Optics. Which only leaves emotional reasoning, and I can't make a logical argument to fight emotions

 

 

man you hit the nail on the head!

 

emotional reasons is the only thing I can think of as well.

 

Maybe it’s because most USPSA shooters think of themselves as “competition shooters”, and we can’t have “competition shooters” running the game with a light, then they look like the “tactical guys”! That’s the only thing I can think of. 

[MemphisMechanic]

@RJH I don’t want them to allow them in because it’s literally the only thing we have left.

 

They let in every stupid unrealisitic race mod that everyone has asked for in the past 4-6 years. Lights are the only place remaining that Troy and Mike haven’t completely fouled up the older superior ruleset.

 

I do have to say that it’s hilarious that we can have unrealistically heavy guns (for daily carry use) fitted with brass grips, lightened slides, and gas pedals...

 

... but the weapon light which I actually have fitted to one of my carry / nightstand guns? That’s out.
 

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[RJH]

Just now, MemphisMechanic said:

@RJH I don’t want them to allow them in because it’s literally the only thing we have left.

 

They let in every other stupid unrealisitic race mod that everyone asked for. Lights are the only place remaining that Troy and Mike haven’t completely fouled up the older superior ruleset.

 

The problem is the old rule set by participation standards would not have been considered Superior at all. The first year or two of Carrie Ops no one shot it and no one was interested and shooting it. Soon as they allow some mods and 140s , the division took off. Lights are not going to change that, they're just going to allow people with cheap guns that feel like they are at a competitive disadvantage to be on a More Level Playing Field. 

[MemphisMechanic]

Do whatever you want with carry optics. Don’t care.  

 

I’m bit***ing about the way production got mutliated. I actually liked that division when a Glock 34 was the gun to have and 97% of us were out of pocket less than $800 on the weapon and all of it’s tuning.

 

Pushing realisitic gear as far as it can go is interesting to me.

 

Shooting a highcap spaceblaster isn’t nearly as much. Just personal taste.
 

Edited July 21, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[MemphisMechanic]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

Lights are not going to change that, they're just going to allow people with cheap guns that feel like they are at a competitive disadvantage to be on a More Level Playing Field. 

What do you think the odds are that USPSA is going to allow them only for polymer guns?

 

You’re just going to push the weight disparity up 10ish ounces on both sides... and sell a bunch of holsters.

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[CClassForLife]

Rules are arbitrary. The argument against WML is more of "it feels wrong" than "is wrong". The gun doesn't need a light for it to function. Slide cuts are part of the slide and stippling is part of the frame. All other modifications in CO are adjustments to necessary components. I feel that the exclusion of the light is consistent with the exclusion of the mag well.

 

That being said, I'm personally indifferent.

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

I’m bit***ing about the way production got mutliated. I actually liked that division when a Glock 34 was the gun to have and 97% of us were out of pocket less than $800 on the weapon and all of it’s tuning.

 

 

As nils and alex gutt and others have shown in recent years, you can still compete at the top of the game with an inexpensive gun. But people are sheep. If Stoeger wore a red clown nose during matches, sheep would believe it was his secret advantage.

[cjmill87]

My understanding of the original intent regarding increasing the weight limit (as dubious as the decision may have been) was to ease the burden on ROs and Match Officials regarding identification and enforcement of the existing rules (i.e. 45 oz limit in CO).  Under the old rules, a Glock 17 or 34 still was at a significant weight disadvantage to a modified Shadow 2, Sig X-Five Legion, Walter Q5 SF etc.  If there was no consideration given to a WML or other external means of adding weight previously, why should that thinking prevail now that the weight limit has been all but removed, not necessarily for competitive reasons but for administrative and compliance reasons?

[Blaize]

24 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

24 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Do whatever you want with carry optics. Don’t care.  

 

I’m bit***ing about the way production got mutliated. I actually liked that division when a Glock 34 was the gun to have and 97% of us were out of pocket less than $800 on the weapon and all of it’s tuning.

 

Pushing realisitic gear as far as it can go is interesting to me.

 

Shooting a highcap spaceblaster isn’t nearly as much. Just personal taste.
 

I’m with you on this, in my mind, and many others I talk to, simply adding some weight up front with a light, a little trigger polishing on say a G34, and you can be very competitive with this. You don’t have to chop up the slide and add all kinds of other parts. For all intents and purposes it’s pretty much a stock gun, which I feel was the intention of these two divisions.

[Boomstick303]

34 minutes ago, cjmill87 said:

My understanding of the original intent regarding increasing the weight limit (as dubious as the decision may have been) was to ease the burden on ROs and Match Officials regarding identification and enforcement of the existing rules (i.e. 45 oz limit in CO).  Under the old rules, a Glock 17 or 34 still was at a significant weight disadvantage to a modified Shadow 2, Sig X-Five Legion, Walter Q5 SF etc.  If there was no consideration given to a WML or other external means of adding weight previously, why should that thinking prevail now that the weight limit has been all but removed, not necessarily for competitive reasons but for administrative and compliance reasons?

 

Was this the case, or was it increased to allow CZs and other metal frame guns to run in CO without cutting the guns all up?  From what I heard CZ slides were cracking once they were cut for Optics.

 

The weight limit in CO is arbitrary.  Why they have one is beyond me.   

 

As far as lights go who cares?  Run them don't run them.  Not sure what the discussion is or the passion for running them or not running them.  Allowing them will not change the trajectory of CO division moving forward.  The people have spoken in regards to the popularity of CO.  Large mag capacity running a dot is what people want to run.  More bullets in a mag more fun, a dot equals quicker learning curve.  I looked at our last local match.  There were 2 Production shooters in the match versus 19 CO shooters.  2 vs 19, and observing shooter participation trends in the USPSA matrix, that tells me all I need to know on the direction of those divisions.  As long as USPSA does not go back to 10 round capacity, CO will continue to take off, light or no light.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Boomstick303

[waktasz]

It's to keep the timmy bulls#!t out of the sport. There I said it. 

[Overscore]

I love threads like this.  I shoot USPSA so that I regularly shoot my carry gun.  If I were to carry with a light and an optic, and the only division that fit in was open, that's fine.  I'm competing only against my own atrophying skills, not other people.

[Blaize]

11 minutes ago, waktasz said:

It's to keep the timmy bulls#!t out of the sport. There I said it. 

this right here sums it up folks! 
 

The “elite competitive shooter” has spoken!

 

no “Timmy” bulls#!t allowed in USPSA!

 

cause ya know, you gotta keep up appearances and all hah!

[RJH]

13 minutes ago, waktasz said:

It's to keep the timmy bulls#!t out of the sport. There I said it. 

 

Ummm pcc says, "timmies welcome "

 

LOL

Edited July 21, 2020 by RJH

[waktasz]

2 minutes ago, Blaize said:

this right here sums it up folks! 
 

The “elite competitive shooter” has spoken!

 

no “Timmy” bulls#!t allowed in USPSA!

 

cause ya know, you gotta keep up appearances and all hah!

 

Nah, it's because most of you Lucas Botkin impersonators are clowns. 
Next will be compensators on production guns because you can get a factory glock threaded barrel and AlL mY fRiEnDs cArRy tHeM

[Boomstick303]

What appearance?  Tactical Timmies can show up anytime they want.  Now can the compete, light or no light?  Hopefully the keep scanning the area for threats after they finish their course of fire.

[Blaize]

11 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

Nah, it's because most of you Lucas Botkin impersonators are clowns. 
Next will be compensators on production guns because you can get a factory glock threaded barrel and AlL mY fRiEnDs cArRy tHeM

man, glad your making assumptions about me, when you don’t even know me!

 

who the hell is Lucas Botkin? 
 

and it sounds like your butthurt because someone probably spanked your ass more than a few times running a Glock 34 with a light out of a safariland duty holster .

 

im not a “tactical” guy at all.

 

this sort of thing is what keeps some really great people out of the sport, people like you with your elitist attitude. 
 

I see many parallels here within the weightlifting community. Powerlifters,crossfitters, and bodybuilders all hate each other.

 

and about compensators, the only place I’ve seen them is on stupid ass open guns that are the most ridiculous pistol I’ve ever seen! No use for it outside of the game, but hey if that’s your thing go for it!

[usmc1974]

17 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 because you can get a factory glock threaded barrel and AlL mY fRiEnDs cArRy tHeM

Nah, you can get a Glock 19 C or Glock 23C with a ported barrel right from the factory, is a better argument.

Edited July 21, 2020 by usmc1974

[waktasz]

The thing is there are new guys showing up to the sport all the time and when they want to change the rules to fit their ideal gun it just gets old. Very few people shooting Glocks at all around here anymore really. 

[Balakay]

18 minutes ago, Blaize said:

this right here sums it up folks! 
 

The “elite competitive shooter” has spoken!

 

no “Timmy” bulls#!t allowed in USPSA!

 

cause ya know, you gotta keep up appearances and all hah!

Just shoot Open. These threads suck (but I can't look away!) 

[waktasz]

Better yet, take 30 seconds to take the light off your gun.

 

I'm not sure what it is about this sport that makes people like this. It's not like people roll into an SCCA event and they are like yea bro, it's stock, ignore the aftermarket wheels, brakes and boost controller, that's how me and my boys all run.