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TS/TSO vs. 2011


Stafford
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How do the CZ Tactical Sport and TSO compare to 2011 Limited guns in .40 S&W.? From my standpoint,  the CZ's seem easier to use for the person who doesn't want to work on their guns, mags or reload. Just shoot the CZ's out of of the box using factory ammo. The one add on would be a couple of basepads to increase capacity, but no mag tuning. And cost wise, the CZ's seem cheaper than most 2011's. 

 

First, are my assumptions correct? 

 

Secondly, why do so many Limited shooters choose a 2011?

 

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2011's came before the TSO (TS aesthetics hold it back a bit), 1911 smiths and shooters are attracted to the similarity, 2011 aesthetics appeal to many, parts compatibility to 1911's is an advantage, and the cost-no-object builders jumped onto 2011's. It is a catch up game for the TSO and availability has not been consistent. 

 

Semi custom or full custom 2011's purchased with tuned mags can be a buy it and go to the match proposition, although I was better off buying a Dawson mag tuning kit and going through the mags once per year (not a big deal). 

 

My 2011's were not terribly fussy about ammo and my TSO was not either. 

 

Cost wise there are some reduced price 2011's now, when I was buying and comparing the TSO had a strong advantage over a 2011 that would perform as well (reliability/accuracy). 

 

For what it is worth. 

 

 

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The CZ was cheaper, the mags cheaper and less tuning. If you've never owned a 19/2011 but have a 75 series CZ pistol then the internals make sense to you.

 

But 4x as many people and companies do stuff, make stuff for the 2011 guns. They also feel different when you shoot them.

 

IF there is a performance difference it is slight. To me I chose one over the other purely on how the gun felt when I shot it.

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I started shooting limited with a TS 40.  Along the way I had the insides smoothed out and a lot of them replaced by CGW.  I also did a grip reduction and had the frame Cerakoted.  Now it a full race TS that shoots and feels better than a TSO.

 

I decided on the TS because I liked how it shot, but mainly because I was in the middle of a 1911 build and didn't have time to build a 2011.  I currently shoot four different 1911s and 2011s in competitions now.  I'm used to the ergonomics and more importantly the grip angle.  The TS is different enough to require a lot of dry fire when switching back and forth.  For that reason I decided to stick with the 1911/2011 platforms.  So the tricked out TS just sits in the case.  

 

Why?  As rowdyb says, they feel different when you shoot them, but also in the hand.  The CZ grip lets you get a bit higher on the gun and closer to the centerline of the bore.  The reduced size of the TS slide essentially brings the centerline down even more.  The result is the muzzle rises less with a TS than a 2011 shooting the same load.

 

My advice is to try both and see what feels and shoots better for you.  If you change your mind later you will have no trouble selling either.

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The one thing I've learned shooting Open with a Czechmate when everyone else is shooting 2011s is that if your gun is reliable and your capacity is similar then for 99.9% of people the gun is not what is holding you back. I think most people in Limited shoot 2011s because everyone else shoots them and anyone looking at switching is told to get one, kind of a self enforcing loop. 

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I have/had both. I don't think you can beat the ergonomics of the CZ or the trigger of the 2011. For me, I decided the trigger was more important, so  switched to a 2011. (Even though the trigger of the TSO was great.) I will always consider the TSO to be an outstanding gun and the best bang for your buck. But for now, I decided to delve into the world of 2011s.

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11 hours ago, adamge said:

Does a regular 2011 have more stroke than a regular TSO?

 

The stroke of a Tanfoglio is 1.850", standard CZ 75 is 1.875", Shadow 2 is 1.890", Czechmate/TS is 2.000", 2011 is 2.115", from what I've been told, Akai strokes his 2011s to 2.415". My custom TS Open is stroked to 2.440", then I run a buffer which gives back 0.140".

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I started shooting Standard Major with the TSO.  LOVED how it fit my hand and loved the light trigger.  Switched to the STI DVC L because I just shot it better.  It’s the trigger, even if it’s not as light (my TSO was about 1.5lbs), it’s CRISP!

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1 hour ago, Chills1994 said:

How much are TS or TSO .40 cal mags going for?

 

How many rounds can you stuff into them?

$47 mag, $38 CZ Custom extension and $18.90 Grams follower/spring.  20 rounds in .40 and 23/24 in 9mm.  20/23 if you want them reliably reloadable.  24 if you are starting with that in the gun.

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2 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

 

The stroke of a Tanfoglio is 1.850", standard CZ 75 is 1.875", Shadow 2 is 1.890", Czechmate/TS is 2.000", 2011 is 2.115", from what I've been told, Akai strokes his 2011s to 2.415". My custom TS Open is stroked to 2.440", then I run a buffer which gives back 0.140".

I am a bit new to the term stroke. I take the term to mean the distance that the slide travels reward after firing. I can see how adding a buffer would reduce the stroke. By what other method is the stroke controlled? All i can think of is increasing the stroke by removing material from the lower part of the slide that contacts the frame.

Edited by Tok36
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1 hour ago, Tok36 said:

I am a bit new to the term stroke. I take the term to mean the distance that the slide travels reward after firing. I can see how adding a buffer would reduce the stroke. By what other method is the stroke controlled? All i can think of is increasing the stroke by removing material from the lower part of the slide that contacts the frame.

 

Yes, shorten the stroke with buffers, lengthen it by removing metal.

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2 hours ago, aandabooks said:

$47 mag, $38 CZ Custom extension and $18.90 Grams follower/spring.  20 rounds in .40 and 23/24 in 9mm.  20/23 if you want them reliably reloadable.  24 if you are starting with that in the gun.

 
thank you sir!

 

So about 104 bucks per mag.... gotchya!

 

I have an old STI open gun in 9mm Major.  It came with one mag that worked.

 

Probably about 10 years ago, I bought new SVI mag tubes for it.  Come to find out SVI changed the dimensions on their tubes.

 

I am probably into each "mag" for about $150.

 

the big stick is probably closer to $180.
 

I was really hoping you guys would tell me TS / TSO mags in .40 cal could be had complete for like $50 out the door.

 

 😞

 

 

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5 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

 
thank you sir!

 

So about 104 bucks per mag.... gotchya!

 

I have an old STI open gun in 9mm Major.  It came with one mag that worked.

 

Probably about 10 years ago, I bought new SVI mag tubes for it.  Come to find out SVI changed the dimensions on their tubes.

 

I am probably into each "mag" for about $150.

 

the big stick is probably closer to $180.
 

I was really hoping you guys would tell me TS / TSO mags in .40 cal could be had complete for like $50 out the door.

 

 😞

 

 

 

Other thing, I know a GM that did not make length at the equipment check station with a TSO and mag with extension. He had purchased components from CZ Custom and he contacted them about it so perhaps it is something that has been resolved. 

It is a good thing to check. 

 

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9 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

 
thank you sir!

 

So about 104 bucks per mag.... gotchya!

 

I have an old STI open gun in 9mm Major.  It came with one mag that worked.

 

Probably about 10 years ago, I bought new SVI mag tubes for it.  Come to find out SVI changed the dimensions on their tubes.

 

I am probably into each "mag" for about $150.

 

the big stick is probably closer to $180.
 

I was really hoping you guys would tell me TS / TSO mags in .40 cal could be had complete for like $50 out the door.

 

 😞

 

 

 

You can do $50 mags.  Just run them stock and be happy with 17rds.  You'll just have to stage plan for that and won't be able to run a CZ Custom deep magwell since with no extension seating will be a problem.

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2 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

 

You can do $50 mags.  Just run them stock and be happy with 17rds.  You'll just have to stage plan for that and won't be able to run a CZ Custom deep magwell since with no extension seating will be a problem.

 How big a deal would that be? Starting most stages with 17+1 with a 17 round reload? Would it be that much of a disadvantage versus those with extended baseplates? I'm guessing most with extended would start with 20+1 with a 20 round reload, or maybe 21 in a mag?

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22 minutes ago, muncie21 said:

I have, and have shot both,  in USPSA limited division.  Neither pistol made me progress to GM :)  Both are very capable pistols, seems to be a matter of personal preference.  

unfortunately it's not the arrow that can bring u to GM.😉 good arrow it's only bonus😀

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27 minutes ago, Stafford said:

 How big a deal would that be? Starting most stages with 17+1 with a 17 round reload? Would it be that much of a disadvantage versus those with extended baseplates? I'm guessing most with extended would start with 20+1 with a 20 round reload, or maybe 21 in a mag?

That is just going to depend on the stages.  I rarely barney a round in Limited but if a stage plan makes it better then I do.  With 17+1 it might lead to doing 2 reloads on a stage so you have plenty of makeups on a 30-32rd course but there will likely be plenty of movement to fit those into.  

 

It wouldn't hurt you at all on classifiers.  

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25 minutes ago, Stafford said:

 How big a deal would that be? Starting most stages with 17+1 with a 17 round reload? Would it be that much of a disadvantage versus those with extended baseplates? I'm guessing most with extended would start with 20+1 with a 20 round reload, or maybe 21 in a mag?

 

It affects your stage planning because it dictates where you change mags.  It may even require two mag changes on a long stage.  20 round mags give you more leeway.  The TS and TSO come with three mags that hold 16 or 17 40sw depending.  So you only have to buy a fourth, plus four extended base pads.  The CZC base pads work fine with the original springs and followers.

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49 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

It affects your stage planning because it dictates where you change mags.  It may even require two mag changes on a long stage.  20 round mags give you more leeway.  The TS and TSO come with three mags that hold 16 or 17 40sw depending.  So you only have to buy a fourth, plus four extended base pads.  The CZC base pads work fine with the original springs and followers.

Forgot about the springs in .40.  Those don't need an upgrade even with extensions.  The 9mm mags do need better springs.

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51 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

It affects your stage planning because it dictates where you change mags.  It may even require two mag changes on a long stage.  20 round mags give you more leeway.  The TS and TSO come with three mags that hold 16 or 17 40sw depending.  So you only have to buy a fourth, plus four extended base pads.  The CZC base pads work fine with the original springs and followers.

Seems like you'd only need two with basepads. If you need a 3rd mag to get through a stage, the 17 rounders should be plenty. Assuming you didn't add the larger magwell. 

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