Possible DQ, but it’s the RO’s fault?

[mreed911]

“Pick up the rope and assume the start position” is not a range command.

[RJH]

50 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Would you still DQ the shooter if the RO has explicitly told him to “Pick up the rope and assume the start position”, which for a PCC involves stock on belt and muzzle down range, and if the RO wasn’t swept until he walked back and crossed in front of the shooter? Not trying to argue, just curious where you would draw the line between shooter responsibility and RO responsibility. 

 

Yes I believe I would. The onus of muzzle control is always on the shooter even with range commands as poor is that. I'm not sure I know any exception to a DQ where you point the gun at someone else or yourself. Sweeping is kind of a big one in the DQ Department Imo

[DKorn]

24 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Yes I believe I would. The onus of muzzle control is always on the shooter even with range commands as poor is that. I'm not sure I know any exception to a DQ where you point the gun at someone else or yourself. Sweeping is kind of a big one in the DQ Department Imo

10.5.5 specifically states that if the RO is swept, the RM must decide whether it is a DQ or RO interference. I’m not sure if it applies here (hence the question in the first place), but it definitely implies that RO interference is an exception to a DQ for sweeping. 

[stick]

6 hours ago, Part_time_redneck said:

Completely avoidable but the question was as it played out so here's my probably incorrect ruling. 

 

10.5.5. RO swept during course of fire. Call RM and he determines if it was sweeping or RO interference. 

 

I would place blame completely on the RO. Shooter should have refused as pointing a loaded gun down range with someone down there is not a reasonable command. 

 

10.6. Bringing shame to the game. RO should be disqualified and prohibited from acting as an RO until ( whatever they identify as ) has learned walking in front of a loaded firearm is not a smart play. 

 

Imagine this unlikely scenario - at LAMR, shooter loads gun and takes a sight picture. RO leans forward and waves hand in front of shooters muzzle. Should shooter be DQ'd for sweeping? My 0.02$, both times are the fault of the RO. 

I agree on both of your rulings.

My $.02  Shame on the shooter for allowing the RO to make him go muzzle up with a loaded firearm.  This was wrong on many levels and had the potential to go south quickly.  Thankfully no one was hurt or killed for that matter.

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, DKorn said:

10.5.5 specifically states that if the RO is swept, the RM must decide whether it is a DQ or RO interference. I’m not sure if it applies here (hence the question in the first place), but it definitely implies that RO interference is an exception to a DQ for sweeping. 

 

I could only see that applied if the shooter outran an RO headed up range and a the RO got swept.  And I would only allow that if I was sure that the competitor was not able to see the RO from his position and inadvertently swept the RO while keeping the gun pointed down range.  But that sounds nothing like what happened in the case in the OP, so DQ IMO

 

 

One other possible exception IMO is if there was a taper down range unseen and the RO started the course of fire.  There was a video going around a couple of years back where that happened and I don't believe the competitor should have been DQed there.

 

So I guess there are a couple of exceptions after all, but I don't feel the OP fell into the exception category

[MemphisMechanic]

6 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

Yeah, but Sarge, did the shooter sweep the RO?  Or, did the RO sweep the shooter?

The RO swept himself through trickery. That’s unsportsmanlike conduct. Disqualify the RO and promote the shooter to CRO.

 

Award the freshly-minted CRO a Shadow 2, a hundo case gauge, a box of junior mints, and a pair of Boombah Hellcats as compensation for his mental suffering and anguish.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[usmc1974]

I've been shooting ipsc matches since about 1982.  all the time I've been RO'ing I have never repeat never, walked in front of a shooter with a loaded or unsafe weapon. It was either cleared and holstered and the range made safe or it was cleared and downed and the range made safe. I say it was the range officers fault and no disqualification of the shooter. Along with poor stage design.

[Gary Johnson]

10.5 says "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:" so a competitor's actions don't have to precisely match any of the examples to be considered unsafe.

 

Based on the information as presented I would say the competitor's actions fall into that category. He pointed a loaded gun down-range knowing there were people there. The fact that he didn't point the gun directly at anyone doesn't change that.

 

If this was a new guy who was just trying to do what the RO told him then he learned a valuable lesson. I feel bad for him but that's not a reason to ignore basic safety protocols.

 

As for the RO walking in front of the gun, needless to say he messed up big time. If the competitor was paying attention he should have been able to see what was coming and turn the gun to a safe direction. He would still be DQ'd for pointing the gun down-range but it would have prevented something that could have resulted in tragedy.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, DKorn said:

10.5.5 specifically states that if the RO is swept, the RM must decide whether it is a DQ or RO interference. I’m not sure if it applies here (hence the question in the first place), but it definitely implies that RO interference is an exception to a DQ for sweeping. 

Correct. If an RO steps in front of a gun that should be on him as interference. That’s pretty cut and dried. 
  It gets much more complicated in cases where a shooter remembers two target back uprange and outruns the RO. I have seen that happen a few times and it depends on the specifics and who the RM is. 

[HCH]

Based on the information in the OP, I say that if an RO is dumb enough to go down range while a guy has a loaded gun in his hand, and then tells the guy with the loaded gun “hey help me with this range equipment” and THEN walks in front of the muzzle.... it’s not the shooter’s fault. 

 

Based on what the OP wrote, the shooter realized what was happening/had happened and tried to avoid it. Blaming someone else’s mistake on the shooter is not grounds for a DQ. 

[Part_time_redneck]

I had a long post drafted and deleted it. Not going any farther with this. The inherent problem with the USPSA rule book is it assumes a certain level of common sense on the readers part which obviously the person acting as an RO, the person acting as the second RO, and the shooter obviously did not have. 

 

The RO, perhaps both RO's should be DQ'd. Shooter, ???. That's why I'm just an RO. Call the RM and let him decipher this clusterF. That's why he makes the big bucks. 

 

As for DQ,ing the shooter for pointing a gun, loaded or empty downrange. while under make ready, please cite the rule. I understand the definition of sweeping, but doesn't the acting timer holder have a responsibility here also? 

 

Long and short of it. Shooter was under make ready. He pointed gun downrange. 

RO walked in front of gun. Let's assign blame. 

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, mreed911 said:

“Pick up the rope and assume the start position” is not a range command.

it's a reasonable request however, and we expect shooters to do what the RO tells them.

 

The more I think about it, the less I would even consider dq-ing the shooter. This one of those things that everyone needs to learn from instead of trying to be a dick. First thing to learn is to have the shooter unload and show clear if you are going downrange.

[Gary Johnson]

2 hours ago, HCH said:

Blaming someone else’s mistake on the shooter is not grounds for a DQ.

 

Are you saying pointing a loaded gun downrange while people are setting targets or repairing props is OK?

[Gary Johnson]

58 minutes ago, Part_time_redneck said:

As for DQ,ing the shooter for pointing a gun, loaded or empty downrange. while under make ready, please cite the rule. I understand the definition of sweeping, but doesn't the acting timer holder have a responsibility here also?

 

Nothing wrong with pointing a loaded gun downrange during make ready. The problem is pointing a loaded gun downrange while someone is setting targets or repairing props. That's one of the rules daddy tells you about when he hands you that Daisy Red Rider.

[HCH]

4 minutes ago, Gary Johnson said:

 

Are you saying pointing a loaded gun downrange while people are setting targets or repairing props is OK?

 

Are you saying telling a guy to load a gun and then walking around down range while he helps you reset props is ok?

 

 

[Gary Johnson]

33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

it's a reasonable request however, and we expect shooters to do what the RO tells them.

 

The more I think about it, the less I would even consider dq-ing the shooter. This one of those things that everyone needs to learn from instead of trying to be a dick. First thing to learn is to have the shooter unload and show clear if you are going downrange.

 

There are thing for which we issue warnings or go behind the berm for a chat. Pointing a loaded gun downrange while people are working on targets isn't one of them.

[Gary Johnson]

1 minute ago, HCH said:

 

Are you saying telling a guy to load a gun and then walking around down range while he helps you reset props is ok?

 

 

 

Nope, the RO screwed up big time and everyone who failed to yell stop loud and clear did too. None of that relieves the shooter of the responsibility for maintaining a safe muzzle direction.

[HCH]

1 minute ago, Gary Johnson said:

 

Nope, the RO screwed up big time 

 

Glad we agree

[Gary Johnson]

11 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Glad we agree

 

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on that.

[ima45dv8]

I've been reading this since the minute it started. A lot of good points have been made. 

 

I can't deny the competitors responsibility for their muzzle discipline. They are ultimately responsible for whether their muzzle flags themselves or someone else. I think most are agreed on this. New or not, you don't let your muzzle cover anything you don't wish to destroy. To do so is a DQ.

 

But, the RO in this instance isn't roped in as tightly, according to our rules. He unfortunately gets to walk away unscathed. 

I know it's not right, and I know there's not a path to discipline the RO, but he should at least not be allowed to hold a timer again until he gets some serious training.

 

 

[Gary Johnson]

1 minute ago, ima45dv8 said:

I've been reading this since the minute it started. A lot of good points have been made. 

 

I can't deny the competitors responsibility for their muzzle discipline. They are ultimately responsible for whether their muzzle flags themselves or someone else. I think most are agreed on this. New or not, you don't let your muzzle cover anything you don't wish to destroy. To do so is a DQ.

 

But, the RO in this instance isn't roped in as tightly, according to our rules. He unfortunately gets to walk away unscathed. 

I know it's not right, and I know there's not a path to discipline the RO, but he should at least not be allowed to hold a timer again until he gets some serious training.

 

 

 

There is a system for dealing with RO misconduct or incompetence. File an incident report with NROI. I can tell you from personal experience they are not ignored.

[ima45dv8]

24 minutes ago, Gary Johnson said:

There is a system for dealing with RO misconduct or incompetence. File an incident report with NROI. I can tell you from personal experience they are not ignored

I know that, Gary. I'm saying that a more immediate, local consequence would be nice. And if they're not a certified RO, the process doesn't really apply.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 First thing to learn is to have the shooter unload and show clear if you are going downrange.

 

I won't do it any other way

[HCH]

1 hour ago, ima45dv8 said:

I've been reading this since the minute it started. A lot of good points have been made. 

 

I can't deny the competitors responsibility for their muzzle discipline. They are ultimately responsible for whether their muzzle flags themselves or someone else. I think most are agreed on this. New or not, you don't let your muzzle cover anything you don't wish to destroy. To do so is a DQ.

 

But, the RO in this instance isn't roped in as tightly, according to our rules. He unfortunately gets to walk away unscathed. 

I know it's not right, and I know there's not a path to discipline the RO, but he should at least not be allowed to hold a timer again until he gets some serious training.

 

 

 

I suppose my biggest question is if the shooter got close to sweeping the RO while the RO reset the prop; if the RO is at the far left side of the bay and the shooter pointed the firearm toward the right berm at 170 degrees I don’t see it as unsafe. 

 

I do not think the shooter should be responsible for the RO walking in front of the firearm. While the whole situation is screwed up like a soup sandwich, the shooter can’t be expected to read the RO’s mind as he walks uprange. 

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, HCH said:

I do not think the shooter should be responsible for the RO walking in front of the firearm. While the whole situation is screwed up like a soup sandwich, the shooter can’t be expected to read the RO’s mind as he walks uprange. 

Like a soup sandwich...      

Ain't that the truth.

 

I've seen a few situations like this in my time in this sport, but it's always the shooters responsibility to maintain safe control of their weapon (there I go again, pissing off the NRA again by calling it a weapon. . .oh, well). That includes some dumb-assed RO walking in front of them. 

 

And that's as it should be.

 

The shooter is ALWAYS responsible for their weapon, and where it's pointed. No question. Regardless of all else that's been said, the shooter DQ'd themself in this instance. But I hate to see so much asshatery involved in what should have been a simple situation. Unload and Show Clear, and let some RO see to the problem downrange. 

 

Yeah, I've had a bunch of shooters stand on the line with a loaded gun in their holster while an errant popper was reset, or other range equipment malfunction was attended to, but I sure as Hell wouldn't ask the shooter to pull their loaded blaster out as part of the remedial process. 

 

There just isn't a process within our ruleset to appropriately punish the dumbassed RO at that moment. I can't think of proper wording for such a rule, and I guess no one else has been able to either, or it would exist. 

 

It's sorta like one of those heart-breaking ASPCA commercials where you think, "That shouldn't be that way". . .but it is.