Possible DQ, but it’s the RO’s fault?

[Gary Johnson]

7 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

I know that, Gary. I'm saying that a more immediate, local consequence would be nice. And if they're not a certified RO, the process doesn't really apply.

 

Sorry, didn't mean t imply that you didn't know. Just mentioning it for the new folks.

[Gary Johnson]

5 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

Like a soup sandwich...      

Ain't that the truth.

 

I've seen a few situations like this in my time in this sport, but it's always the shooters responsibility to maintain safe control of their weapon (there I go again, pissing off the NRA again by calling it a weapon. . .oh, well). That includes some dumb-assed RO walking in front of them. 

 

And that's as it should be.

 

The shooter is ALWAYS responsible for their weapon, and where it's pointed. No question. Regardless of all else that's been said, the shooter DQ'd themself in this instance. But I hate to see so much asshatery involved in what should have been a simple situation. Unload and Show Clear, and let some RO see to the problem downrange. 

 

Yeah, I've had a bunch of shooters stand on the line with a loaded gun in their holster while an errant popper was reset, or other range equipment malfunction was attended to, but I sure as Hell wouldn't ask the shooter to pull their loaded blaster out as part of the remedial process. 

 

There just isn't a process within our ruleset to appropriately punish the dumbassed RO at that moment. I can't think of proper wording for such a rule, and I guess no one else has been able to either, or it would exist. 

 

It's sorta like one of those heart-breaking ASPCA commercials where you think, "That shouldn't be that way". . .but it is.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. The eternal frustration for me is that while record numbers of folks are going to NROI seminars and getting trained they are a drop in the bucket compared to the total number of folks who shoot our matches.

 

I have nothing but respect for anyone willing to help run a match but too many at the club level just don't have the skills or aren't familiar with USPSA safety protocols. The fact that this happened means that the squad didn't have any trained range officers in it or any that were there didn't act quickly enough. Either way it points out the importance of trying to get everyone through a minimal level of training.

 

We run with guns. That's not something you manage with common sense. USPSA collectively has millions of man-hours of experience and NROI does their best to boil that down to a weekend seminar and make it available to anyone who wants to help out. Folks who have no intention of going beyond their local clubs still need to know how to deal with situations like Danny brought up so when (not if) it happens again they will be ready to act before something dangerous happens.

[usmc1974]

30 minutes ago, Gary Johnson said:

 while record numbers of folks are going to NROI seminars and getting trained.

While this is all well and good, there is not enough rules, or enough training seminars, to replace common sense. At some point in the game this has to play into it. Like I said I been playing this game since about 1982 I have never walked in front of a man holding a loaded weapon and blamed him for my stupidity. Always had them clear and Holster a weapon and make the range safe or clear and down the weapon and make the range safe. Common sense I care about my health and my life.

[Intheshaw1]

So one rule change would be to always require unload and show clear anytime someone goes downrange. A pistol when holstered is one thing but as we've seen it's easy for a pcc to drift around.

[RJH]

No rule change needed.  Don't point your blaster at someone else, no problem.  We already have rules for this very thing and any more are just "feel good" rules with no actual benefit to anyone.  The RO did dumb s#!t, the shooter did dumber s#!t, no amount of extra rules will keep people from doing dumb s#!t.  I have been doing this for 15 or years, I have went down range of loaded shooters LOTS of times to set/tape a target with no issue, even when the shooter has a rifle/shotgun.  Muzzle up means MUZZLE UP.  DQ the shooter and take the timer from the "RO" and go on about your day.

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, Gary Johnson said:

 

There are thing for which we issue warnings or go behind the berm for a chat. Pointing a loaded gun downrange while people are working on targets isn't one of them.

what rule is that?

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

No rule change needed.  Don't point your blaster at someone else, no problem.

 

note that as described, the shooter did not point his gun at anyone. He was pointing it in a safe-ish direction, and someone walked in front of it, and he reacted immediately.

[RJH]

38 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

note that as described, the shooter did not point his gun at anyone. He was pointing it in a safe-ish direction, and someone walked in front of it, and he reacted immediately.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree here.  Pointing a gun down range while people are downrange is not what i would call safe, it is a lot like breaking the 180 but not pointing the gun at someone.  If the shooter keeps his gun muzzle up and doesn't put his head/etc. over it, there is no issue on his part, the RO is still dumb though, but that is not what happened.  The shooter had his gun pointed downrange while someone was working on the props, that is on him.  Definitely a lot of dumb s#!t in that sequence of events, but muzzle control is on the shooter.  If you think  being downrange and someone waving a loaded gun in that direction doesn't fall under 10.5 "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:" then feel free to go down there.  If someone points a gun downrange while props are being worked on and I an ROing, he is going to be done for the day.  That said, i would have done pretty much everything different if i was ROing the stage in the OP

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by RJH

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree here.  Pointing a gun down range while people are downrange is not what i would call safe, it is a lot like breaking the 180 but not pointing the gun at someone.  If the shooter keeps his gun muzzle up and doesn't put his head/etc. over it, there is no issue on his part, the RO is still dumb though, but that is not what happened.  The shooter had his gun pointed downrange while someone was working on the props, that is on him.  Definitely a lot of dumb s#!t in that sequence of events, but muzzle control is on the shooter.  If you think  being downrange and someone waving a loaded gun in that direction doesn't fall under 10.5 "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:" then feel free to go down there.  If someone points a gun downrange while props are being worked on and I an ROing, he is going to be done for the day.  That said, i would have done pretty much everything different if i was ROing the stage in the OP

 

unless i misunderstood it, it sounds like the RO told him to get in the make ready position (reasonable request of a range official), and then walked in front of his gun. He was pretty much *instructed* to point his gun downrange. But it doesn't hurt my feelings if you want to handle it differently.

[RJH]

On 7/6/2020 at 5:31 AM, DKorn said:

The shooter was directed by the RO to go muzzle up and wait while the RO reset the target.

 

From the OP

 

 

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

unless i misunderstood it, it sounds like the RO told him to get in the make ready position (reasonable request of a range official), and then walked in front of his gun. He was pretty much *instructed* to point his gun downrange. But it doesn't hurt my feelings if you want to handle it differently.

 

So he was instructed to go muzzle up, and not even pretty much, just instructed.  I am big fan of personal responsibility.  Do something unsafe with your blaster, you get to go home.  And when i comes down to it, regardless of what the RO said, the gun is in the hands of the shooter and the final decision is his. If you are ever downrange and someone starts waving their gun in your vicinity, i will send them home and not think twice about it

[RJH]

One other explanation:  Did the shooter know there was someone down range?  And if so did he point his gun downrange?  If the answer is yes and yes then DQ per 10.5 "but not limited to:"

[motosapiens]

i may have misinterpreted one post as representing the actual situation, rather than a hypothetical. but wutever. I don't really care if the shooter is dq'd or not. I would dq *all* rifle shooters. I do care that RO's are encouraging people to do dumb and unsafe stuff.

 

 

[outerlimits]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

i may have misinterpreted one post as representing the actual situation, rather than a hypothetical. but wutever. I don't really care if the shooter is dq'd or not. I would dq *all* rifle shooters. I do care that RO's are encouraging people to do dumb and unsafe stuff.

 

 

“I would dq *all* rifle shooters.“

 

LMAO!

[Gary Johnson]

6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

what rule is that?

 

10.5.12 comes to mind. Back a few years I was competing in a shotgun match and set a closed box of shells on the safe table while I took the shotty out of the bag. The RM happened to be watching and told me that while it was technically not handling ammunition it wasn't a good idea.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Gary Johnson said:

 

10.5.12 comes to mind. Back a few years I was competing in a shotgun match and set a closed box of shells on the safe table while I took the shotty out of the bag. The RM happened to be watching and told me that while it was technically not handling ammunition it wasn't a good idea.

I would dq all shotgun shooters as well.

[DKorn]

Now that everyone has had a few days to discuss the situation and what the ruling should have been, and I’ve had time to think over it a few times, I want to chime back in with my thoughts. 
 

I was the shooter. I screwed up, and I probably should have been DQ’d. Ultimately, I am the only one responsible for the safe handling of my firearm, and I was part of a series of events that ended up with an unsafe situation - a loaded firearm pointed at a person during a match. 
 

Sure, the stage design contributed to the initial events, but I am still the only one responsible for my muzzle direction. 
 

Sure, the RO also made mistakes that contributed to the situation becoming unsafe, but I am still the only one responsible for my muzzle direction. 

Ultimately this was nobody’s fault but mine because I was the one handling the firearm. 
 

 

I will be paying extra close attention to my gun handling to ensure safety in the future, particularly when shooting a PCC since a PCC gets handled in situations where a handgun would remain holstered. 
 

If something happens during my make ready that requires someone to go down range to fix it, I will ask the RO to unload and show clear first. If I am shooting a PCC, I will tell the RO to have me unload and show clear first and will not accept that going muzzle up with a loaded rifle is safe. 
 

If I am the RO and a similar situation occurs, I will ask the shooter to unload and show clear before fixing the problem. Not only is it safer, it also lets the shooter go through their normal make ready routine.
 

If I feel that I have committed a truly unsafe action at a match, I will seriously consider putting my gun away and being done for the day,  even if I don’t necessarily have to.

 

If I witness or am involved in an unsafe situation or any kind of safety issue at a match, I will notify the RM and MD, even if there isn’t necessarily a rules call or DQ to bring to their attention. 

 

TL,DR version: I screwed up. I should probably have been DQ’d. I’m going to try to be extra safe in the future. 

[IVC]

On 7/6/2020 at 7:12 AM, motosapiens said:

also sounds like clear shooter dumbness to lower his pcc when someone was downrange, even if they were off to the side. big no-no imho. (especially when he was directed to go muzzle up). 

Most shooters are not certified ROs and they don't really know the details. If the RO tells them to do something, why or even how would they refuse? Based on what?

[IVC]

2 hours ago, DKorn said:

I was the shooter. I screwed up, and I probably should have been DQ’d. Ultimately, I am the only one responsible for the safe handling of my firearm, and I was part of a series of events that ended up with an unsafe situation - a loaded firearm pointed at a person during a match. 

You didn't do anything unsafe with the gun. The RO did something unsafe - he was the one messing around with the stage props AFTER he had a shooter begin the course of fire (8.3.1 is clear that "Make Ready" is the start of COF).

 

Someone posted above that if the RO waves a hand in front of a shooter who is taking a sight picture it's not the shooter's fault, it's the RO interference. 10.5.5 is pretty clear about it too... 

[DKorn]

5 hours ago, IVC said:

You didn't do anything unsafe with the gun. The RO did something unsafe - he was the one messing around with the stage props AFTER he had a shooter begin the course of fire (8.3.1 is clear that "Make Ready" is the start of COF).

 

Someone posted above that if the RO waves a hand in front of a shooter who is taking a sight picture it's not the shooter's fault, it's the RO interference. 10.5.5 is pretty clear about it too... 

 

I agree that there are scenarios in which sweeping is RO interference and shouldn’t be a DQ. However, pointing my gun in a generally unsafe direction - down range when there is someone working on something down range - is completely and totally on me.

[usmc1974]

On 7/7/2020 at 8:52 AM, Intheshaw1 said:

So one rule change would be to always require unload and show clear anytime someone goes downrange. A pistol when holstered is one thing but as we've seen it's easy for a pcc to drift around.

Hell! I thought that was a rule.lol

[gng4life]

9 hours ago, DKorn said:

Now that everyone has had a few days to discuss the situation and yada yada yada...

Class act sir! Takes a big man to admit when he's wrong, especially on this stage. Super happy no one was hurt but this is a good learning moment for everyone. Take care...

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

Hell! I thought that was a rule.lol

Nah. Generally the RO should stay with the shooter while somebody else goes downrange. Typically just stand in front of the shooter as if talking to them. There is no need to have them unload then go through whole make ready routine so somebody can slap a few pasters on a target. But if more time and work is involved then by all means clear out the shooter

[IVC]

6 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

I agree that there are scenarios in which sweeping is RO interference and shouldn’t be a DQ. However, pointing my gun in a generally unsafe direction - down range when there is someone working on something down range - is completely and totally on me.

 

These situations are frustrating because they are not explicitly addressed in the rules, they come down to interpretation of various general safety rules, and there is a serious potential for unsafe situations. 

 

I see it as the RO problem and only the RO problem. Once he gives you "make ready" command you are not only free to point down range, it's considered the safe direction. If he now modifies the rules because of a prop malfunction, he would have to make up some rules on the spot about what he is allowing you to do, then he would have to be next to you to ensure you follow those rules because there might be a misunderstanding between the two of you - these are not rules from the rule book, these are rules that the RO is creating on the spot in order to ensure the safety of the range. That's not a good position to be in as a shooter and it's created by the RO. 

 

At our range we generally require a handgun shooter to put his/her hands on the head if they are hot and someone needs to go down range. This is not required by the rules, but it is also not forbidden. It not only prevents any handling of the hot firearm by the shooter until explicitly authorized (again) by the RO, but it's a signal that the person is hot in case the fix takes longer and the shooter must be unloaded. I would not allow a hot PCC shooter while someone is fixing the stage - there is no holster and the hands are on the gun. It is inviting to the type of situation that you found yourself in and it's not fair to the shooter, not to mention that it is dangerous. 

 

Hopefully we see a rule update where these types of issues are explicitly addressed. It's not hard to have a protocol for these quick fixes and either require a shooter to be unloaded always (most would agree that it's not practical and not required), or create a system for how to have a hot shooter with people down range. Winging these situations is a recipe for disaster. 

 

[DKorn]

6 minutes ago, IVC said:

I see it as the RO problem and only the RO problem.

I see why you would say that, but I disagree. 
 

As the shooter, and especially as a trained RO, I should have recognized that pointing my muzzle down range while he was fixing the target was unsafe. Even if he directly and explicitly had told me to aim at a target off to the other side that would have absolutely meant that my muzzle would be down range but nowhere near him, the right thing to do would still have been to refuse. 

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, IVC said:

I see it as the RO problem and only the RO problem. Once he gives you "make ready" command you are not only free to point down range, it's considered the safe direction. If he now modifies the rules because of a prop malfunction, he would have to make up some rules on the spot about what he is allowing you to do, then he would have to be next to you to ensure you follow those rules because there might be a misunderstanding between the two of you - these are not rules from the rule book, these are rules that the RO is creating on the spot in order to ensure the safety of the range. That's not a good position to be in as a shooter and it's created by the RO. 

 

I think this is a reasonable and well-stated argument. We have rules for a reason, and they are clear and consistent, and everybody knows them and practices them. When you stray off the reservation and start making things up, you can't really assume that everyone else understands things the same way.

 

Yes, most shooters will eventually understand that they shouldn't actually assume the start position with a loaded gun to test the rope, but it's not really part of the rules that we all know and understand.

 

I think the safest thing to do is to just require all pcc starts to be unloaded, gun on table.