Possible DQ, but it’s the RO’s fault?

[DKorn]

I’m wondering what people think would have been the correct call for a situation that happened at a local I shot yesterday. 

 

I see multiple preventable things that led to the situation; I’m more interested in what should’ve been done after it happened.

There was a stage with a moving target activated by a rope. The activator took a very light pull to activate. The start position was standing on marks holding the rope in the strong hand, handgun loaded and holstered, PCC loaded with stock on belt. Multiple times on our squad the shooter accidentally activated the target during make ready and it had to be reset before hey could shoot. 

A shooter was shooting PCC. During his make ready, he loaded the carbine and assumed his normal start position (stock on belt, weak hand on handguard, strong hand on grip) while holding the rope and accidentally activated the mover. The shooter was directed by the RO to go muzzle up and wait while the RO reset the target. The RO then told him to grab the rope so that they could figure out how far back his hand could be without activating the target while the RO stayed near the target to prevent it from activating and to reset it if necessary.  As he grabbed the rope, the shooter leveled the carbine downrange - not sweeping the RO, since he was downrange but off to the left - so that he could figure out where in relation to the carbine his strong hand could be with the rope without accidentally activating it. The RO then came back uprange to the start position and crossed in front of the muzzle as he did so.

 

The shooter immediately went muzzle up and said something along the lines of “Hey, I think I technically swept you. Is that a DQ?”. The RO told him that since he told him to grab the rope and since he moved across the muzzle rather than the shooter moving the muzzle across him, it was his fault and the shooter was not DQ’d. 

Should he have been DQ’d? Or did the RO make the right call?

[konkapot]

Lots of issues with this whole thing. 

 

Yes DQ; shooter is responsible for his own gun handling. 

[gng4life]

Well, here goes another 4 or 5 page post. There are so many things wrong on so many levels with this situation and it all could have been prevented by a few simple things. I just have to ask, was the RO a timer holder or were they a certified RO? 

[MemphisMechanic]

Yikes.

 

That is all.

[LuvDog]

This whole thing sounds like an accident about to happen. 

 

I think they should have adjusted the activator pull after it was found to be too light. 

[MemphisMechanic]

6 minutes ago, LuvDog said:

This whole thing sounds like an accident about to happen. 

 

I think they should have adjusted the activator pull after it was found to be too light. 

Sounds to me like a club that would be well-served to purchase a stomp pad activator. This is exactly the reason they’re popular.

 

[Hammer002]

RO buys the ice cream.

[usmc1974]

Well here goes,  if I set up this stage, I would have had a steel pepper popper with the Rope attached to it, on start signal you just push the pepper popper over with you strong hand. That way it would have been pre-measured predetermined and the same for everybody. As for the DQ, I can't say because I would have not set the stage up that way start with. But I probably would have had him unload and show clear but I doubt I would have dq'd him.

Edited July 6, 2020 by usmc1974

[Part_time_redneck]

Completely avoidable but the question was as it played out so here's my probably incorrect ruling. 

 

10.5.5. RO swept during course of fire. Call RM and he determines if it was sweeping or RO interference. 

 

I would place blame completely on the RO. Shooter should have refused as pointing a loaded gun down range with someone down there is not a reasonable command. 

 

10.6. Bringing shame to the game. RO should be disqualified and prohibited from acting as an RO until ( whatever they identify as ) has learned walking in front of a loaded firearm is not a smart play. 

 

Imagine this unlikely scenario - at LAMR, shooter loads gun and takes a sight picture. RO leans forward and waves hand in front of shooters muzzle. Should shooter be DQ'd for sweeping? My 0.02$, both times are the fault of the RO. 

[Rnlinebacker]

Well, here goes another 4 or 5 page post. There are so many things wrong on so many levels with this situation and it all could have been prevented by a few simple things. I just have to ask, was the RO a timer holder or were they a certified RO? 

[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, Part_time_redneck said:

Completely avoidable but the question was as it played out so here's my probably incorrect ruling. 

 

10.5.5. RO swept during course of fire. Call RM and he determines if it was sweeping or RO interference. 

 

I would place blame completely on the RO. Shooter should have refused as pointing a loaded gun down range with someone down there is not a reasonable command. 

 

10.6. Bringing shame to the game. RO should be disqualified and prohibited from acting as an RO until ( whatever they identify as ) has learned walking in front of a loaded firearm is not a smart play. 

 

Imagine this unlikely scenario - at LAMR, shooter loads gun and takes a sight picture. RO leans forward and waves hand in front of shooters muzzle. Should shooter be DQ'd for sweeping? My 0.02$, both times are the fault of the RO. 

Don’t forget, sweeping is a no go even with unloaded gun

[Sarge]

See 10.5.5

[usmc1974]

8 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Don’t forget, sweeping is a no go even with unloaded gun

Yeah, but Sarge, did the shooter sweep the RO?  Or, did the RO sweep the shooter?

[motosapiens]

sounds like RO interference to me, but......

 

also sounds like clear shooter dumbness to lower his pcc when someone was downrange, even if they were off to the side. big no-no imho. (especially when he was directed to go muzzle up). 

 

also sounds pretty crazy to try to fix the stage with the shooter's help while the shooter is holding a gun. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by motosapiens

[Mcfoto]

This is what happens when you allow rifles at a pistol match . I agree with the ROs “no call”. His mistake in keeping the stage safe shouldn’t end someone’s day.

[dmshozer1]

RO should NEVER leave the shooter, period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rifle up, someone in the squad does the necessary downrange work.

Patching a target, resetting a swinger, etc.

[DKorn]

3 hours ago, gng4life said:

I just have to ask, was the RO a timer holder or were they a certified RO? 

The RO does not hold a current RO certification but was trained and certified in the past. I believe his cert expired several years ago. 

[DKorn]

Easy things that would’ve prevented this:

-different style activator

-adjusting the activator so that a harder pull was required

-using a longer rope so that it wouldn’t be fully stretched out in order to reach the start position
-having the shooter unload and show clear before sending someone down range, or at the very least having the RO stay with the shooter to maintain positive control of the shooter

-the shooter should have either refused to pick up the rope and figure out the distancing while someone was downrange, or kept his muzzle up while doing so

-the RO coming back uprange could have recognized the potentially unsafe situation and either instructed the shooter to go back to muzzle up and/or walked around instead of in front of the shooter

 

Did I miss anything?

[DKorn]

31 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

sounds like RO interference to me, but......

 

also sounds like clear shooter dumbness to lower his pcc when someone was downrange, even if they were off to the side. big no-no imho. (especially when he was directed to go muzzle up). 

 

also sounds pretty crazy to try to fix the stage with the shooter's help while the shooter is holding a gun. 

This is basically my feeling on it. A series of brain farts and unsafe actions by multiple people, with the RO contributing enough of it that the shooter got lucky and got to finish the match, but only because the RO felt that it was his responsibility. With a different RO, this could definitely have gone the other way, and I think either call might have been reasonable. 

[outerlimits]

The real question is was the RO 6’ away from the shooter...

[DKorn]

32 minutes ago, outerlimits said:

The real question is was the RO 6’ away from the shooter...

I’m not sure what you’re getting at, but at the time the RO was fixing the activator, he was significantly farther than 6’ away from the shooter. At the time he crossed in front of the muzzle, he was probably a few feet away. I’m not sure if it was more or less than 6’. 

[ima45dv8]

5 minutes ago, DKorn said:

I’m not sure what you’re getting at,

I think he's wondering if it was a socially-distanced sweep.

[DKorn]

1 minute ago, ima45dv8 said:

I think he's wondering if it was a socially-distanced sweep.

 
 

edit:

Edited July 6, 2020 by DKorn

[RJH]

I thought about this one for a little while because of all the extenuating circumstances, and I ended up with DQ the shooter. Even though the RO did a lot of stuff stupid and maybe shouldn't be ROing, the shooter is still responsible for his gun and muzzle and where it's pointing. If I can't trust you not to point it in the correct direction while we're standing there not in a rush, how can I trust you to not point it the wrong way on the clock

[DKorn]

19 minutes ago, RJH said:

I thought about this one for a little while because of all the extenuating circumstances, and I ended up with DQ the shooter. Even though the RO did a lot of stuff stupid and maybe shouldn't be ROing, the shooter is still responsible for his gun and muzzle and where it's pointing. If I can't trust you not to point it in the correct direction while we're standing there not in a rush, how can I trust you to not point it the wrong way on the clock

Would you still DQ the shooter if the RO has explicitly told him to “Pick up the rope and assume the start position”, which for a PCC involves stock on belt and muzzle down range, and if the RO wasn’t swept until he walked back and crossed in front of the shooter? Not trying to argue, just curious where you would draw the line between shooter responsibility and RO responsibility.