22lr for PCC practice

[Chillywig]

How viable is it to set up a 22 AR in a very similar fashion to a PCC to use in practice? Using the same grip trigger optic etc to mimic the PCC match gun. The 22lr could also be used in steel challenge matches. My question is the recoil going to be too soft to be a practical training substitute?

[TeedOff]

I’ve got a .22 set up very close to my match PCCs. I run it in steel challenge RFRO. It’s good that the controls, optic and general feel of the gun is similar across them but the recoil impulse and dot movement is just different. I don’t think there’s any harm in running similar setups across 22 and 9mm PCCs but for me I’ll still train with the PCC predominantly.

[Frozen]

I have always thought of building a 10/22 to train with that’s is like my Ruger pcc . Curious what others think


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[jrdoran]

 

1 hour ago, Frozen said:

I have always thought of building a 10/22 to train with that’s is like my Ruger pcc . Curious what others think


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I completely agree;    Ruger PCC and 10/22 .  

 

 

[jrdoran]

Here is my buddy @tomv

AR9 and AR22 ultralight setups; 

 

 

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I have a S&W 15-22 that is setup like my PCC's. I even have 35 round magazines for it. I also have a Ruger 10/22 with a Nordic AR kit on it. It works well also. Thanks, Eric

[vgdvc]

11 hours ago, Chillywig said:

How viable is it to set up a 22 AR in a very similar fashion to a PCC to use in practice? Using the same grip trigger optic etc to mimic the PCC match gun. The 22lr could also be used in steel challenge matches. My question is the recoil going to be too soft to be a practical training substitute?

I believe there is a lot of merit in training with a 22 LR that is set up as closely as possible to your PCC rig. Good for practicing transitions, entry and exit from barricades, odd positions and shooting on the move all with lower-cost. I like to cross train in the same session with both so I don't get recovery habits/timing too familiar with the lower recoil impulse of the rim fire only. I also keep the same firm hold as if shooting a PCC.

[longbeard]

19 hours ago, Chillywig said:

How viable is it to set up a 22 AR in a very similar fashion to a PCC to use in practice? Using the same grip trigger optic etc to mimic the PCC match gun. The 22lr could also be used in steel challenge matches. My question is the recoil going to be too soft to be a practical training substitute?

I don't think there is any substitute for using the same gun. Particularly with regards to dot movement and tracking which relates to your recoil comment. 

 

Anything the 22lr is going to do for you could be gained with dry fire IMO.   I know I have repeatedly learned that in shooting sports, there are few economical short cuts.  It's just an $$ hobby!

 

 

[zzt]

I've toyed with that idea myself.  I came to the following conclusions:  first, a 22 set up as closely as possible to my PCC would help in transition training, but nowhere else.  Second, I found I am quicker in transitions with my 3.5 lb 22 than I am with my 5.6 lb. PCC. So I'd rather not increase my RFRO times.

[usmcchet9296]

I bought a DPMS/Nordic .22 upper, re-profiled the barrel and dropped it on a Spikes lower with a CMC trigger. Its close to my the weight and size of my 223 gun but a few lbs more than my 9mm but its still good practice and I run it at my local 22 matches 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by usmcchet9296

[nickbfishn]

I went one step further and built a PCC, a 22lr, and a 223 all virtually identical. They are purpose built to use in a special match that we do once a year and I find it helps to have everything feel the same. But, when i shoot the 22lr the dot doesn’t even wiggle. So for that reason I always shoot it last because I can’t run the trigger as fast on the other 2 guns and get the same hits like I can on the 22.

 

what I have not done (and not really sure why) is run the 22lr for SCSA matches. 

[tomv]

We run 62 PF loads in our 9mm Steel challenge guns. Mine are the two ARs pictured above submitted by jdoran. The 9mm weighs 5#, 14 oz more than the 22 at 4# 2oz. There is very little difference in dot movement between the two. Biggest difference is that CCI minimags run at 1250 FPS while the 95 gr 9mm loads are down at 650.

[TeedOff]

We run 62 PF loads in our 9mm Steel challenge guns. Mine are the two ARs pictured above submitted by jdoran. The 9mm weighs 5#, 14 oz more than the 22 at 4# 2oz. There is very little difference in dot movement between the two. Biggest difference is that CCI minimags run at 1250 FPS while the 95 gr 9mm loads are down at 650.

What sort of buffer system are you running in that 9mm steel challenge gun?

[tomv]

JP SCS.

[rowdyb]

On 6/3/2020 at 6:05 PM, Chillywig said:

How viable is it to set up a 22 AR in a very similar fashion to a PCC to use in practice? Using the same grip trigger optic etc to mimic the PCC match gun. The 22lr could also be used in steel challenge matches. My question is the recoil going to be too soft to be a practical training substitute?

Is recoil and stuff associated with it the main focus of your training? Probably not once you know how to hold and shoulder the gun.

Is vision, movement, transitions and trigger work a majority? Likely. And you can do that w a .22 clone of your pcc.

[zzt]

Okay, I have a Leadstar Arms Prime 9mm PCC that uses Glock mags.  How do I convert that to 22LR?  I'm fine with buying a complete new upper.  I'm not fine with modifying anything in the lower.

[jrdoran]

@tomv   ^^^  Can you help Steve.   

[tomv]

Is your lower a 5.56 with Glock mag adapter? If so then all you need to change is the upper, remove the mag adapter and buffer (not necessary for operation but saves weight) and you're good to go. Use Black Dog 22 mags which fit right into the 556 mag sleeve and are the most reliable.

 

For the upper I used a CMMG 4.5" 22 LR barrel and their 22 bolt assembly. You can buy these as a set from CMMG. I sent mine to Tim at Taccom and he welded on a shroud to get the bqrrel to 16" and completed the rest of the upper. I just use a piece of pipe insulation for a handguard.

 

If your lower is a native 9mm I'm not sure what to do. I know that Glock makes .22 pistols but have never examined the mags to see if they are the same geometry as the 9mm. You should call CMMG and ask whether Glock .22 mags will work with their bolt assembly.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, tomv said:

If your lower is a native 9mm I'm not sure what to do. I know that Glock makes .22 pistols but have never examined the mags to see if they are the same geometry as the 9mm. You should call CMMG and ask whether Glock .22 mags will work with their bolt assembly.

 

Thanks Tom.  My PCC is native 9mm.  I did talk to CMMG and Tacom a while ago, and CMMG again today.  They confirm I would definitely have to remove the ejector to get their bolt to work, so that's a deal killer right there.  Also, they have no idea if it would feed from Glock 22 LR mags.

[tomv]

I built a dedicated 22 to keep things simple for me. Because it's a rimfire I was able to use a post ban receiver for $100.00 instead of a $1200.00 pre ban one (required for centerfire guns here in CT. That made the build seem very cheap to me.  The most expensive part of the lower was the Hiperfire Eclipse trigger. Since I shoot Steel Challenge RFRO with it it was a no brainer for me.

[Kokeman]

I have a 22 ar set up real similar to my pcc that I use for steel challenge. Me personally I think there is a difference in using a 22 and a 9mm for training. If you reload the cost is close enough to the same. 

[tomv]

Agreed, however I think the benefit if shooting identical guns, except for their weight, is that both divisions benefit whenever you practice or compete with one of them. my two are about 12 oz different and because the 22 weight savings come from removing the buffer and  Mag adapter and a lighter bolt mechanism they both point and swing about the same.

 

I also have a Volquartsen Ultralight barrel and receiver on a Mod Shot chassis. That weighs 3# 9oz, about 1/2 pound lighter than the AR22, and I'm faster with the AR. I think that is because I benefit from shooting the same geometry in two divisions.

[zzt]

9 hours ago, tomv said:

I also have a Volquartsen Ultralight barrel and receiver on a Mod Shot chassis. That weighs 3# 9oz, about 1/2 pound lighter than the AR22, and I'm faster with the AR. I think that is because I benefit from shooting the same geometry in two divisions.

 

I'm just the opposite.  I'm significantly faster with my 3 lb. 7 oz. RFRO.  That may be because I'm used to that gun, and have just started with a PCC.  What really got me thinking about a 22 PCC for practice was rowdyb's comment about trigger pull.  The Kidd single stage in the 10/22 build it superb.  The Hyperfire ECL trigger in the PCC is the sloppiest trigger I own. 

[tomv]

Surprised to hear that about the Hiperfire trigger. Which springs are you using? I'm running three of these and they are all like on - off switches. about 2.2 oz avg.

Call them, there should be no slop at all in the trigger. I'm comparing these to my Volquartsen triggers and the ones in my Limcat 2011's

I did have a problem with one of the Hiperfires which was corrected by replacing springs after talking to their engineer. Excellent support.

[zzt]

2 hours ago, tomv said:

Surprised to hear that about the Hiperfire trigger. Which springs are you using? I'm running three of these and they are all like on - off switches. about 2.2 oz avg.

 

Whatever Leadstar put in when they built the gun.  It didn't come with any extra springs or instructions.  The spring on the right has some red on it.  The left spring 'may' have a dot of red on the very front.  Basically it looks black.  The creep drives me crazy.  Pull weight is about 3 lb.

Edited June 10, 2020 by zzt