Intro to USPSA class

[SGT_Schultz]

I think NROI should develop a compulsory introductory course for anyone who wants to shoot USPSA for the first time.

 

The only ones who get a pass are IDPA shooters who hold, or have ever held, a higher than Novice classification.

 

Getting swept today right by the gut by a shooter brand new to USPSA while he uncased and holstered his pistol facing right at me in the registration area is all the justification I need.

 

I don't care if it "drives people away".  The sort of people who think they don't need to be told what the safety rules of our sport are beforehand aren't who we want anyway.

 

I don't care if you've been shooting for longer than I've been alive. 

 

I don't care if you learned to shoot in delta force/seals/whateverother special military outfit

 

No class = no play. 

 

It doesn't need to be a 2 day ordeal like what IPSC Canada does but it does need to be more than the new shooter safety pep talk at a match.  There are several non-negotiable things that shooters must know before they ever set foot at a match.  The "new shooter safety brief" the morning of doesn't cut it.  It would have done nothing to stop what happened today because it would have taken place AFTER new guy pointed his gat at my manhood and gut.

 

I left competing in registered sporting clays because of the appalling lack of muzzle discipline, general DGAF attitude about the universal rules of safe gun handling, AND the attitudes of the people when politely asked to not point a gun at me.  I'm not going to tolerate the same in this sport.

 

 

I will begin the push.

Edited May 10, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[MikeyScuba]

The Canadian “black badge” course while long, left us with good friends as a side benefit.

[crmcdm]

No doubt that the quality of safety checks when a person first starts vary a great deal. My personal experience was very thorough. It started with how you arrive to the range, safety areas, and proceeded to the four rules, range officers and their commands, the sequence of squads. Emphasis on safety was huge. We then did a simulated make ready sequence dry, shot a stage (dry), through if clear hammer down holster. Then repeat hot. I felt fully prepared. To your original point, my guess is that everyone may not get that quality.  More info here:

https://www.nwsection.org/getstarted

[Sarge]

I strongly agree with the OP. Unfortunately this would have to be driven from the top down. There is just no feature in place to let us know who new shooters are. We do a new shooter orientation at one of our local clubs every winter before the season starts but its open to anyone and really doesn't address the right stuff. And don't forget one doesn't need to be a USPSA member to shoot locals so even HQ would only be able to solve part of the problem by mandating a training requirement. 

  Personally, I think HQ only cares about numbers. They want to be able to tout "30,00 members" "1 million members" etc. ANYTHING that impedes that will be seen as a detriment to the growth of the sport. And americans are such a different breed that the IPSC nations. We generally prefer less regulation and are not always tolerant of being required to do anything. LOL

  I would love for HQ to send a new mamber list to the AD's who would in turn send it to us section coordinators. SC's set up the training dates throughout the year and new members contact us to get on the list. Meanwhile there would also need to be a way the uspsa numbers get flagged when we try to register them. No training? No registering.

  It could be done but I doubt it ever will until there is a death because of a lack of orientation. Just like replacing stop signs with traffic lights after 20 people die at a dangerous intersection

[MHicks]

If USPSA HQ wants to be able to tout the highest membership numbers possible why allow non members to participate? Those two concepts seem opposed to each other. I understand that potentially people would want to shoot a match or two before joining but they could set up a way to accomplish that.

You can charge different rates or give priority registration to members to encourage joining. In at least some areas matches fill up fast already.

[SGT_Schultz]

51 minutes ago, MHicks said:

 

 

deleted

Edited May 10, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I strongly agree with the OP. Unfortunately this would have to be driven from the top down. There is just no feature in place to let us know who new shooters are. We do a new shooter orientation at one of our local clubs every winter before the season starts but its open to anyone and really doesn't address the right stuff. And don't forget one doesn't need to be a USPSA member to shoot locals so even HQ would only be able to solve part of the problem by mandating a training requirement. 

  Personally, I think HQ only cares about numbers. They want to be able to tout "30,00 members" "1 million members" etc. ANYTHING that impedes that will be seen as a detriment to the growth of the sport. And americans are such a different breed that the IPSC nations. We generally prefer less regulation and are not always tolerant of being required to do anything. LOL

  I would love for HQ to send a new mamber list to the AD's who would in turn send it to us section coordinators. SC's set up the training dates throughout the year and new members contact us to get on the list. Meanwhile there would also need to be a way the uspsa numbers get flagged when we try to register them. No training? No registering.

  It could be done but I doubt it ever will until there is a death because of a lack of orientation. Just like replacing stop signs with traffic lights after 20 people die at a dangerous intersection

 

I think this can be separated from membership status.

 

USPSA can keep its matches open to non members while mandating a safety class before ever shooting a match.

 

You can elect to never become a USPSA member but you can't shoot until you take the safety class.

 

Membership can be handled one of two ways

1. You can become a member any time, but you can't shoot until you take the safety class
2. You must take the safety class before becoming a member

 

The specifics don't matter to me as much as making the safety class mandatory before actually shooting a match.

 

To me this is like building a roundabout at a four way intersection from the start so that any accident that might happen is the least severe of all.

Edited May 10, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[davsco]

as noted, not everyone is uspsa member, so maybe this isn't uspsa's thing to solve.  how about thru practiscore.  check the box for first uspsa match and you get a popup or email with the basic safety rules, hints, etc.  or at least the MD is notified, to contact you and give you a class or the like.  heck maybe even practiscore is smart enough to know you haven't done (signed up for) a uspsa match before and do this (popup or notify MD).

 

and a little lower tech - md can scan thru signups and note anyone he is not familiar with (anyone with a uspsa # and class can be skipped over) and contact them to see if a class or the like is needed.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, davsco said:

as noted, not everyone is uspsa member, so maybe this isn't uspsa's thing to solve.

 

USPSA publishes the rules and standards under which the match takes place.  USPSA provides sanction for the match by recording scores and classifiers.

 

Guess who a plaintiff's attorney is going to look to for redress?

[broadside72]

Our club requires proof of at least one action pistol match without a DQ or you need to take our new to competitive shooting course. Actual new shooters are not accepted as you must have some gun handling should before hand

[terrydoc]

In Australia we do a "holster and Proficiency " course before you are allowed to shoot an IPSC comp, it's a little bit overblown as it was originally designed for the licencing course. But they have withdrawn a few things from it and now it's IPSC specific. Its about a 4 hour course detailing  basic rules and knowledge followed by live fire from the basic IPSC starts, and around barricades and some movement is also included.

It seems to work for us but as with anything you have folks that are like computers and the information has to be punched in. But most are quite good with it.    

Now having said that clubs here like to run ipsc style matches and as the OP said some loose cannons get to them and sometimes scary.

Edited May 11, 2020 by terrydoc

[SGT_Schultz]

53 minutes ago, terrydoc said:

In Australia we do a "holster and Proficiency " course before you are allowed to shoot an IPSC comp, Its about a 4 hour course detailing  basic rules and knowledge followed by live fire from the basic IPSC starts, and around barricades and some movement is also included.

 

That sounds about what like we need in the States

[Racinready300ex]

On 5/9/2020 at 11:18 PM, SGT_Schultz said:

I left competing in registered sporting clays because of the appalling lack of muzzle discipline, 

 

^Good luck with that, prepare to be swept every time you're on the range.

 

There would be some things to work out to pull this off. Who's going to teach it? Do they need certification from USPSA? What about other certs? Insurance? How much can the instructor charge?

 

I'm working with a local training company to put on a into to competition class. We charged $99, and it was more catered to IDPA. It ended up being a full day, I went through rules and safety then went out to the range. We started with easy stuff like group shooting, mixed in dry fire and worked up to some basic things you'll  run into on a stage. I had to come up with all the curriculum, the company I work with required me to be a NRA instructor, they have insurance and so do I.  When you figure all the time and money that goes into it, at $99 it's barely worth the it. But, I'm not really doing it to make a bunch of money. But, I'm also not going to do it for free.

[Sarge]

54 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

^Good luck with that, prepare to be swept every time you're on the range.

 

There would be some things to work out to pull this off. Who's going to teach it? Do they need certification from USPSA? What about other certs? Insurance? How much can the instructor charge?

 

I'm working with a local training company to put on a into to competition class. We charged $99, and it was more catered to IDPA. It ended up being a full day, I went through rules and safety then went out to the range. We started with easy stuff like group shooting, mixed in dry fire and worked up to some basic things you'll  run into on a stage. I had to come up with all the curriculum, the company I work with required me to be a NRA instructor, they have insurance and so do I.  When you figure all the time and money that goes into it, at $99 it's barely worth the it. But, I'm not really doing it to make a bunch of money. But, I'm also not going to do it for free.

Just another piece of the puzzle that will make it impossible to be an official requirement. The NRA and USPSA are on opposite ends of the spectrum. And charging a hundred bucks for an intro to USPSA is quite frankly, insane. It’s a volunteer sport and on any given match day there are 50+ people giving tips and advice to each other. Do they all need insurance? Come on....

  

[davsco]

one local uspsa club identifies new shooters (practiscore new shooter box checked and also scans for unfamiliars).  first match is under one-on-one supervision, separate from squads.  same club doing 2 gun does similar but squads new shooter with experienced squads who handhold them.  i think they also have the newbie show up a little early to go over the basics first. 

 

while safety with guns is paramount of course, don't think we need day-long $100 classes.  you have cooper's four rules then some expansion for uspsa (180, finger not just off trigger but outside triggerguard, safe areas, etc).  

[HCH]

No. 

 

The rule book is online and easy to access. If a new guy can’t read that or ask someone where to get their gun out of a bag, they aren’t the ones I want around anyway. 

 

I’m not sure why IDPA would be exempt and IPSC wouldn’t, either. 

 

The whole thing would add a lot of extra headache and volunteer hours that simply aren’t needed. Shooters, brand new or seasoned, need to remember that THEY are in control of the gun and only they are responsible for its control. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Just another piece of the puzzle that will make it impossible to be an official requirement. The NRA and USPSA are on opposite ends of the spectrum. And charging a hundred bucks for an intro to USPSA is quite frankly, insane. It’s a volunteer sport and on any given match day there are 50+ people giving tips and advice to each other. Do they all need insurance? Come on....

  

 

In my case the NRA thing is just a requirement of the insurance the range uses that is all. Nothing NRA related in the class. For that class I spent 6-8 hours between the classroom and the range. We went over rules, safety, gear plus time on the range shooting. We needed a classroom and a range to use. Targets, target stands, fault lines barricades steel. I also went into how to practice a little, (basics) There is a lot that goes into a real class, and because of that I wouldn't require new shooters to take one, nor require clubs to offer something like this. (certainly not for free) As for Insurance? Just like any insurance you don't need it unless something bad happens. 

 

Now if we're talking about a 10 min new shooter brief before a match. Sure, that's easy most ranges I've been to do that anyway. USPSA could write something up, and just have a RO go over some bullet points. Not really any different then what most places do now.

[davsco]

2 hours ago, HCH said:

ask someone where to get their gun out of a bag

 

the prob is new people don't know what they don't know.  throw your stuff on at the car and go shoot the match, right?  the prob is uspsa (and other games) rules are (and rightfully so) an overabundance of caution and redundant, so they're not intuitive.  again, gearing up at the car isn't necessarily unsafe, nor is breaking the 180 if you're not pointing the gun at anyone, nor is finger off the trigger vs outside the triggerguard.  we have some extra stringent rules and just need to let newbies know them before they show up.

[gerritm]

Many of our local indoor ranges have a basic proficiency requirement if you shoot their matches and don't have an IDPA, USPSA, or other shooting sports membership # that at least shows that you have some knowledge of the safety rules & have shot a match. If you don't have this they require you to go to one of their classes. Which is all well & good cause most have certified person on staff to train & then have the required insurance. Not so on club matches. Who takes on this task? A couple of our clubs do offer an "Intro to USPA/safety", but how do you get the word out to someone who's buddy tells him about these matches & how fun they are and show up Saturday with some basic gear to shoot? Turn him away cause he didn't have this class? I believe a good new shooter safety brief before the match & assign them to a squad with experienced shooters who are willing to help & guide them through the match. 

 

Now I have been shooting in several different shooting sports for awhile and other than lately with the Chinese virus preventing them. What happened to IDing the new shooters at the shooters meeting and have a brief safety instruction before the match?? Several of our clubs don't even have shooters meeting anymore, just go to the bay & stage. If this is the way the match goes we will usually will ask if anyone is new and help them out with the safety brief and help them get through the match safely. 

 

 

gerritm

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, HCH said:

No. 

 

The rule book is online and easy to access. If a new guy can’t read that or ask someone where to get their gun out of a bag, they aren’t the ones I want around anyway. 

 

I’m not sure why IDPA would be exempt and IPSC wouldn’t, either. 

 

The whole thing would add a lot of extra headache and volunteer hours that simply aren’t needed. Shooters, brand new or seasoned, need to remember that THEY are in control of the gun and only they are responsible for its control. 

 

 

 

The guy who swept me didn't know what he didn't know. 

 

IDPA and IPSC classified shooters would be exempt because they already know the basic safety expectations of the sport.

 

The amount of effort needed to put this on is hardly "a lot of extra headache and volunteer hours".  I'm not even going to ask why you think this would be such an imposition.  I honestly am not in the mood to care about opposition when I had to stare at the muzzle of a pistol on Saturday.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, gerritm said:

Many of our local indoor ranges have a basic proficiency requirement if you shoot their matches and don't have an IDPA, USPSA, or other shooting sports membership # that at least shows that you have some knowledge of the safety rules & have shot a match. If you don't have this they require you to go to one of their classes. Which is all well & good cause most have certified person on staff to train & then have the required insurance. Not so on club matches. Who takes on this task? A couple of our clubs do offer an "Intro to USPA/safety", but how do you get the word out to someone who's buddy tells him about these matches & how fun they are and show up Saturday with some basic gear to shoot? Turn him away cause he didn't have this class? I believe a good new shooter safety brief before the match & assign them to a squad with experienced shooters who are willing to help & guide them through the match. 

 

Now I have been shooting in several different shooting sports for awhile and other than lately with the Chinese virus preventing them. What happened to IDing the new shooters at the shooters meeting and have a brief safety instruction before the match?? Several of our clubs don't even have shooters meeting anymore, just go to the bay & stage. If this is the way the match goes we will usually will ask if anyone is new and help them out with the safety brief and help them get through the match safely. 

 

 

gerritm

 

Did you read my initial post?

 

The guy who swept me did so immediately after showing up.  He plopped his bag on a table facing me, put on his belt and holster, and immediately opened the gun case, pulled the pistol out, swept me, then holstered.

 

The new shooter briefing happens, at every club I've been to that has one, well after everyone's signed in.

 

I'm not sure how much more clearly I can say this: NEW SHOOTER SAFETY BRIEFINGS DO NOT AND CANNOT PREVENT WHAT I SAW ON SATURDAY.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

In my case the NRA thing is just a requirement of the insurance the range uses that is all. Nothing NRA related in the class. For that class I spent 6-8 hours between the classroom and the range. We went over rules, safety, gear plus time on the range shooting. We needed a classroom and a range to use. Targets, target stands, fault lines barricades steel. I also went into how to practice a little, (basics) There is a lot that goes into a real class, and because of that I wouldn't require new shooters to take one, nor require clubs to offer something like this. (certainly not for free) As for Insurance? Just like any insurance you don't need it unless something bad happens. 

 

Now if we're talking about a 10 min new shooter brief before a match. Sure, that's easy most ranges I've been to do that anyway. USPSA could write something up, and just have a RO go over some bullet points. Not really any different then what most places do now.

 

The class I'm talking about is not a class about how to shoot a match.  It's not about gear, or divisions, or classifications, or anything else that isn't USPSA safety rules and expectations.

 

It's a class about SAFETY and safety only.

 

It doesn't need props, stages, fault lines, barricades, barrels, walls, or any of that BS.  Hell, live fire isn't even necessary.  Might be nice if a club wants to include it, but it's not necessary to achieve the purpose I have in mind.

 

NROI can develop the curriculum just like it developed them for RO, CRO, and RM trainig.

 

Certified ROs would teach the material.

 

Classroom session:

• Teach the four fundamental safety rules
• Teach the fundamental USPSA safety rules
  • Where and when can you handle your pistol
  • Where and when can you NOT handle your pistol
  • Definitions of unsafe gun handling
  • Examples of unsafe gun handling, as defined by USPSA
  • Basically most of the stuff in 10.5
• Teach some basic, simple techniques from drawing from a holster safely
• Teach some basic, simple techniques for reholstering safely

 

I bet all this can be covered, including Q&A, in 2 - 2.5 hrs.

 

At the end, every participant gets a card certifying the date of the training.  Now they can go shoot.

 

The new shooter briefing at the match does NOT work.  The guy who swept me did so within 5 minutes of showing up.  Every club I've been to that does a new shooter briefing does so after registration is closed and right after the general shooter's meeting.  By then it's too f'ing late.

Edited May 11, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[Racinready300ex]

21 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The amount of effort needed to put this on is hardly "a lot of extra headache and volunteer hours".  I'm not even going to ask why you think this would be such an imposition.  I honestly am not in the mood to care about opposition when I had to stare at the muzzle of a pistol on Saturday.

 

Clearly you are passionate about this, understandable. I'd recommend you come up with a curriculum, and plan for application and take it to the BOD. You could probably even start offering the class locally to work the kinks out and show how effective it could be. 

[SGT_Schultz]

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

Clearly you are passionate about this, understandable. I'd recommend you come up with a curriculum, and plan for application and take it to the BOD. You could probably even start offering the class locally to work the kinks out and show how effective it could be. 

 

Already starting to put ideas to paper.  Also started thinking about other certified ROs in my area that can vet and offer feedback before going fwd.

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The class I'm talking about is not a class about how to shoot a match.  It's not about gear, or divisions, or classifications, or anything else that isn't USPSA safety rules and expectations.

 

It's a class about SAFETY and safety only.

 

It doesn't need props, stages, fault lines, barricades, barrels, walls, or any of that BS.  Hell, live fire isn't even necessary.  Might be nice if a club wants to include it, but it's not necessary to achieve the purpose I have in mind.

 

NROI can develop the curriculum just like it developed them for RO, CRO, and RM trainig.

 

Certified ROs would teach the material.

 

Classroom session:

• Teach the four fundamental safety rules
• Teach the fundamental USPSA safety rules
  • Where and when can you handle your pistol
  • Where and when can you NOT handle your pistol
  • Definitions of unsafe gun handling
  • Examples of unsafe gun handling, as defined by USPSA
  • Basically most of the stuff in 10.5
• Teach some basic, simple techniques from drawing from a holster safely
• Teach some basic, simple techniques for reholstering safely

 

I bet all this can be covered, including Q&A, in 2 - 2.5 hrs.

 

At the end, every participant gets a card certifying the date of the training.  Now they can go shoot.

 

The new shooter briefing at the match does NOT work.  The guy who swept me did so within 5 minutes of showing up.  Every club I've been to that does a new shooter briefing does so after registration is closed and right after the general shooter's meeting.  By then it's too f'ing late.

 

That's great, you're well on the way. You should come up with a class outline which you kind of have, just add some detail. Figure approximate costs for the class. Are you thinking at the range day of the match have the new shooters show up a 7AM for a 10AM start? Or a separate day, maybe once a month? Similar to how clubs need to hold a minimum number of matches a year should there be a minimum number of classes? Will there be activity fee's for the class? Try to address every possible concern. 

 

Once you have all your thoughts together approach the BOD with your proposal. I'd still consider running it locally for your club. This could help you work out the kinks, and help you to show them just how easy it would be for clubs to implement.