benny hill Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 (edited) Went to a 3-gun match this weekend with a few friend's & shot what I thought was a fairley good match untill I was presented with a bill for damaging a prop. It went like this. You shot your ar from a platform, ran down range about 40 yds, picked up a dummy, ran back, and tossed it onto the platform. At this time our squad was told to use the dummy as a rest for the AR to shoot off of. Most everyone did so , as did I. Except my muzzle break gases tore a small hole in the pant's leg I did'nt know off. After the match was over I was told I owed a $100.00 for the pant's & had to pay. I've never seen anyone put a $100.00 pair of pants on anythine, much less a prop that they know is going to get shot over. To keep a heated agurment down, I paid the money but will never go to this match again as will the guy's with me. Have been shooting 3-gun for 20 yr.'s & have never seen ANYONE have to pay for a prop. that was hurt by accident. I don't know if the other shooter's were aware of it or not but felt inclined to tell everyone how I felt. The way my luck goes , I probley paid retail for the pant's. Edited October 4, 2005 by Nik Habicht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKooi Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 That is the most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 Wow, I've had shooters destroy props at my matches, but chalked it down to wear and tear, an accident, or an oversight on my part (stuff like poorly placed target stand that got shot up, etc) . Never thought to issue a bill for the damage, just doesn't seem right. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS_A18138 Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 (edited) You have got to be kidding! Did they tell you all at the walk through that if you damaged any props that would have to pay for it? Hell I have used my own truck at a match for a prop knowing it might get hurt. Edited October 4, 2005 by Nik Habicht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluker1 Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 (edited) You have got to be kidding! Did they tell you all at the walk through that if you damaged any props that would have to pay for it? Hell I have used my own truck at a match for a prop knowing it might get hurt. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> At the shooters briefing they said that if anyone damaged the Rescue Randy they would have to pay for the damages because of the expense of the pack, helmet and flight suit. It was known to the shooters before they shot the stage. It was one of those $150 aviator flight suits, so I can understand their concern. It wasn't like shooting through a plywood wall it was and expensive suit. alan Edited October 4, 2005 by Nik Habicht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 (edited) Yea, paying for a damaged prop, just dosent sound right. We have had guys shoot cars we have used as props...no charge...but lots of comments from the peanut galery and fun "ribbin". Edited October 4, 2005 by Nik Habicht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 At the shooters briefing they said that if anyone damaged the Rescue Randy they would have to pay for the damages because of the expense of the pack, helmet and flight suit. It was known to the shooters before they shot the stage. It was one of those $150 aviator flight suits, so I can understand their concern. It wasn't like shooting through a plywood wall it was and expensive suit. But... Where shooters told, prior to travelling to the match, that there would be range props downrange of the muzzle for which they would be held personally liable? It's fair game to impose atypical conditions by giving advance notice prior to the point where the competitor commits time, airline tickets, hotel fees, etc. but waiting until the shooter is at the match is like an unannounced stop at a law office on the way to the wedding and telling the spouse-to-be "by the way, you have to sign a pre-nup or the wedding is off." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Well, to be constructive, if you don't want props shot up, designate a box or other place to deposit the prop that is absolutely out of the line of fire/backblast area. Alternatively use a cheap sandbag wrapped in clothes destined for the homeless shelter instead of wrapping them in HSLD Nomex. Another constructive suggestion for match directors is to not charge competitors for piddly damage to pants and props. If the match finances are tight, take some crap off the prize table and sell it, or pass the hat, or anything but ruin a shooter's match by imposing penalty fees. No one wins here. Benny is out $100. The match sponsors are out some goodwill and future competitors. The prop donor has to make repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Ok, I am not a moderator by any means, but Benny is professional enough to not tell where he was publicly. He stated what happened, what he did, and what he will do. Please if he wants you to know who/what match he will tell you. If not, don't start dropping names or other stuff. It won't be hard to figure out where he was if you just have to know, but let's be professional enough to do it without going overboard. Where ever he was, they will and have already learned a valuable lesson I'm sure. But don't make them not want to try again and improve....What is the other option???? I'm sure everyone involved would rather not had this trouble, but it is done. Learn from it and use it to the better. Benny, I will see you in Arkansas....bring your crying towel, I will have enough rifle bullets this year !!!!!!.... And a Nice new Blaster. HOPALONG/SAM KEEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garryowen Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 (edited) It's good Benny posted his side on the net while I was on the road (I headed into a truck stop net-room after getting a call from Scott M about this to get this post out, I’m still out of town). Now I see that not only is there a Dog Pile on me, but no one even seems interested in the rest of the story. It was put out at the beginning of the match that if you shoot a prop, you bought it. I specifically mentioned to the shooters to make sure not to shoot the dummy or damage it with a comp. I’m sorry that I was so “stupid” as to use a real set of CVC (combat Vehicle Crewman’s) gear on the dummy we used on the tank stage. I thought it would be cool and that having grown men NOT SHOOT IT wouldn’t be to hard a request. Benny was the most experienced shooter at the entire match and was the ONLY ONE to damage a prop (The “$30 Clay Holder” was whacked with a hammer until it was straight and all was well, if Mell paid anyone any money, I want to know who it was so I can get it back and return it to him). When I confronted Benny on the matter, he didn't deny he did it and he didn't say a damn thing about the bill. He just gave me his patented Smile and handed me the $100. Nothing else, he didn’t say it seamed steep or mention anything about maybe replacing it (which would have also worked). Maybe $100 was high, I don’t know, that set of coveralls wasn’t mine, it was loaned to me (brand new) from a friend of mine still in the Army, I was planning to replace it with one I found on this web site http://www.militarysupplyhouse.com/priceli...lepricelist.htm (I know that are cheaper on Ebay, but I refuse to use Ebay as they are anti-gun) they list used for $50 and new for $100 (size Med Reg, bigger sizes cost more). I don't get any kind of "good guy" discounts from anyone one who sells this stuff. I’m sorry if I upset anyone with my having the audacity to actually hold someone accountable for their actions. Please feel free to complain about me to my face.. Shawn M. Nealon CEO Cavalry Arms Corp 723 W. Commerce Suite A Gilbert Arizona 85233 (480) 833-9685 scout@cavalryarms.com If you would like to come by to beat my ass in person, please don’t hit me in the face or genitalia Edited October 4, 2005 by Nik Habicht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 I suggest that you add the words "Competitors must agree to accepting financial responsibility for damage, shooting or otherwise, to range props as a condition of entry" to future match ads. Since such conditions are not typically imposed at a match, you would be doing both yourself and your competitors a favor by making this clear up front. I don't know Benny personally, but I doubt he would have posted anything to these forums regarding this matter if he had been told he had to accept this condition prior to registering for the match. This is not intended as a "beating", but a suggestion for improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 I thought it would be cool and that having grown men NOT SHOOT IT wouldn’t be to hard a request. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In general, one can expect grownups to not purposefully shoot up the props. That's not unreasonable. In the heat of "battle", however, the props that are subject to the immediate presence of a firearm are inevitably going to take some wear and tear. If you'd have had more than 40-ish shooters (at least, my understanding was there were 40-ish), I would expect it wouldn't have just been Benny - the prop wear goes up with the usage. The rule of thumb is - don't put anything downrange or in the shooter's hands you're not willing to have destroyed. There are ways for things to get damaged that the shooter has no real control over (ricochets and fragmentation, for instance). If it's valuable to you, don't use it in a match. And don't tell them to use it as a rifle rest, either. If you want to put cool stuff like this in the match, put them in places where the shooter has to intentionally do something stupid to get dinged with a bill, not where damage could happen by accident from a well intentioned shooter. Making people fork over cash for damage to a prop that you put in harm's way in the first place tends to breed bad feelings about your match - if people feel like they have to tote an extra couple of hundred bucks to the match, just in case, they start to think about not coming.... Anyhow.... I understand you guys had a totally kick-ass prize table, which is always a cool thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 I've combined Benny's original thread with Shawn's reply, and whacked all of the posts that either violated Forum Guidelines or didn't contribute anything useful to the thread. A reminder from the forum guidelines: Attitude Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. Please – no antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones. Obviously a number of poster's disagree with the match organizers charging a fee for a damaged prop. Perhaps this discussion could be served by clearly and politely making suggestions for improving the situation in the future. I'm heading out the door to work now ---- I'll be sending PMs to the people who's posts I edited with explanations late tonight. I will not be sending PMs to the 30 people who's posts I whacked --- if you fall into that group and require an explanation, please PM me or send me an e-mail and I'll be happy to respond. Please try to keep this thread on track ---- This was a whole lot of work.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Even though this whole thing got a little ugly it's a good thread, because it educates match officials on how to use props and how to notify competitors about consequences of damaging them. So we all learned something, Benny is going to vote with his feet, that's his right just as any other competitor would vote with his feet if he disliked something about a particular match. Lesson learned if your going to charge for prop damage make sure you notify competitors as specifically as possible before the match, and in the match application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmcphersn Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Did Benny get the damaged suit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralChang Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Did Benny get the damaged suit? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I spoke with Shawn this morning and he advised that Benny did in fact receive the suit. It kinda looks like one of those jumpsuits you always see senior citizens wearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 (edited) Is it a green nomax MIL SPEC flight suit that got damaged? If so I have several in my closet and will send you one for nothing and even pay shipping. This is about three yards past where I would throw the bull$hit flag. PM me with an address if I can help. Edited October 4, 2005 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garryowen Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Is it a green nomax MIL SPEC flight suit that got damaged? If so I have several in my closet and will send you one for nothing and even pay shipping. This is about three yards past where I would throw the bull$hit flag. PM me with an address if I can help. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, it's not...this is from the link I provided above... 7US- U.S. CVC COMBAT VEHICLE CREW COVERALLS, NEW, KHAKI, OLIVE, "U.S. G.I. ISSUE" All sizes $180.00 up I didn’t think it was unreasonable to ask people to control their muzzles at this match and being that everyone except on man was able to do so, I don’t think I made a bad call. The only person who did this was the one man at the match who has the most experience shooting and should know better. When I asked him about damaging the dummy, he didn’t deny it, when I presented him with the damaged coveralls (as in they are his now) and a bill, he happily paid it. He didn’t say anything about it seeming steep or offer to instead replace the coveralls with a new set (which would have been fine) or maybe trade some gunsmithing for the coveralls…nothing, just his patented smile and $100 in cash. At the MGM match, you hole a steel target, you have to buy it (I know, I’ve seen it happen) and at the Mystery Mt. match (the largest 3-gun match in the world) if you shoot a prop, you get a stage DQ and depending on the damage, you may also have to pay for it. If anyone has a new (or like new) set of the above spec'd CVC Coveralls, I'll gladly pay $100.00 for them (but I will need a recipt). Most of you who think I'm being a jerk were not a last years match and were not at this years match. If this incident is going to keep you (as well as the guys from Corpus) away next year, well I am sorry to hear it, you'll be missing a fun shoot. I tried to be fair with every one (hell I even personaly ran the guy from Corpus threw the stage in question AFTER he was DQ'd because he wanted to make sure his gear worked before the nationals) we also let the 2 match DQ's pulll prizes off the table. The rules were put out well in advance of the match, again gone over at the shooters brief and then again before the stage. What more can I do? Should I just say "Just Kidding" when someone breaks the rules? Should I have ignored them if it's someone well known/liked? My contact info is posted above if anyone would like to further discuss this with me (or my staff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKuhn Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 What a shame that this would happen, I sure hope that this is not the sour end to what me and the wrecking crew considered a great time. Thank you Shawn for putting out the effort and the money to in entertaining us with this match. The three pieces of Soviet armor were very cool, damm good stage, However what was the US tank crewmen doing in front of a Block BMP. Thank you Benny for the night of hard drinking and hard to believe stores and I am sure you would have been right in the foray if those boys hadn’t changed there minds and decided to throw down on us. Now that’s how you ride the fence. Love Mell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 (edited) I wasn't at the match and don't know if you're a jerk or not, but as a former MD I would never dress up a prop in anything that couldn't be thrown out after the match. When I design, personally finance, setup, and work a stage (I'm becoming a regular at the SC Sectional) I have extras of anything that might get shot. Things at shooting matches do tend to get shot, even if it's not part of the plan. That is a problem for the match officials to worry about, not the shooter. The underlined section is sort of a key phrase for anyone running a match. I can't believe anyone would dress up a dummy in anything that they don't plan on trashing after the match. Nor can I believe anyone would try to make "don't hurt my dummy" a match rule, expect anyone there to actually care about the prop while they're shooting a stage, or expect anyone to pay for damages to the dummy's clothes after the staff advised using it as a shooting rest. I've been to several matches where personal vehicles were used as part of the stage. This has always struck me as extremely unwise, but it's not my vehicle, so what do I care. In the couple of instances of damage to the vehicle, the owner simply ate the damage because putting the vehicle there was HIS terrible idea. Of course shooters are always warned to "not shoot my vehicle", but not a soul would actually expect the shooter to be held accountable for the stupidity of the stage designer. I do believe there could be instances of gross negligence/misconduct where a shooter could be expected to pay. If someone had shot the dummy in the head after a bad run would be a fair example. Burning it with a comp after being told to use it as a rest is a good example of a "what not to use as props" experience for the match staff. Edited October 4, 2005 by Nik Habicht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Folks, I'm home for a couple of minutes for lunch --- PMs will go out tonight when I'm done wroking. Please keep the discussion off the particulars of this match, and focus on the larger issues non-specifically. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Of course shooters are always warned to "not shoot my vehicle", but not a soul would actually expect the shooter to be held accountable for the stupidity of the stage designer.I do believe there could be instances of gross negligence/misconduct where a shooter could be expected to pay. If someone had shot the dummy in the head after a bad run would be a fair example. Burning it with a comp after being told to use it as a rest is a good example of a "what not to use as props" experience for the match staff. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ROFL!!! +1 I about wet my pants after reading this post. "If only common sense were common..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmilk9 Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 These posts are getting no where, If anyone has a problem, they should contact that person, do it face to face. I have met Benny several times, I dont know him personally, seems like a great guy, very reasonable too, Benny call Shawn and take care of this off the public forum, mods are changing posts, deleting posts and adding their own 2 cents in. We were all there and know what went down, it was a misfortunate event and lets learn from it, deal with it and move on. Now where the hell is the next 3 gun match?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Before this gets locked down... I would like to point out that sharing these types of experiences can be quite helpful, especially for the newer MD's. I know I've learned a lot about what "not" to do by reading about the experiences of others. There are some well meaning MD's out there that don't use enough common sense because something is "really cool." It happens all the time. I've been screwed with by an over zealous MD before and I just smiled and went on, yes sir no sir. Some people are jerks and some people make deciscions in a vacuum. That is the beauty of this forum, at least you can learn from the judgement of others. Maybe it really is is a neat idea for someone to shoot over the hood of your truck... ...until someone smacks the hood of your car with a .308 bullet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhearn Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 (edited) Now where the hell is the next 3 gun match?????? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Now thats a good question. The next one is in Alabama. 11/04-06/05. Come on down. Area 6 3 Gun. Moss Branch Shooting Range Anniston AL. Join us. Moss Branch Web Site MHearn Edited October 5, 2005 by mhearn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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