Uspsa Shooters At Idpa Matches

[Mark Perez]

All ,

After reading Taran Butlers reply in the dq thread - I was amazed that there is still a bias towards USPSA shooters from the IDPA crowd. Especially at a major match like the Nationals.

When a prominent figure like Sevigney says "..why don't you just wear a bullseye on your back" for wearing an IPSC shirt , then you know an issue still exist in this sport.

USPSA and IDPA both have much to offer each venue.

Both sports can learn from 'cross-over' shooters if given the chance.

IDPA-only shooters can learn a great deal from USPSA shooters if they remove the tactical blinders and open both their eyes and mind.

I am embarrased for the sport of IDPA and I hope everyone here who participates in IDPA can learn something from this incident and apply it to the club match and beyond.

Until that day,

Mark Perez

A-04097

Phoenix

[dirtypool40]

Mark I am headed out to my first IDPA match in 18 months. I'll be back with an up to the minute report.

[MarkS_A18138]

Mark, I will tell you that I have experienced that first hand. My wife I and shot with a group from central Texas and I had a couple of guys on my squad that kept making comments about us and our IPSC gear we were using. My wife and I showed up to practice and found out that there was a match going. (This was also our first time at an IDPA match)The MD told us if we got the cash he had the room for us to get some trigger time. We said sure thing!!! Our squad was made up 5 uspsa guys and 4 or 5 IDPA guys. We had a great time but on every stage I heard some little remark after shooting the stage.

I have since joined IDPA to support a local club in our area. I look at it this way I will shoot damn near any discipline just to have fun. I don't think any of it is real life after having a brother that was a cop for 19 years and was involved in 4 major shooting in his career. I shoot to have fun and enjoy seeing my friends! I also believe we are seeing a slow change in our area with IDPA group coming over to shoot IPSC and having fun!

On a side note Iron Mike was the MD and he is one of the guys that want as preZ of your club. (Super Cool) He made us feel welcomed and that we were part of the crowed even though we had race guns on!

[magchange]

Wow! you got to shoot with your "gamer" gear, IDPA must be pretty lenient compared to SASS. I dropped by one of their matches, they asked if I wanted to shoot for fun, I said sure I got my IPSC rig in the trunk. That was the end of the discussion

[BroncoGlenn]

I think once IDPA recognizes and accepts that it is second fiddle to USPSA/IPSC there will be less bias towards USPSA shooters.

I'm not saying IDPA is any lesser of a game (yes, IDPA is still a game and many people need to come to terms with that) than USPSA, its just different. And if trying to woo over USPSA shootersand get them to stick around, they need to make people from other disciplines feel welcome. Other shooters--the regulars--essentially need to keep their traps shut if they see a new shooter sporting verboten equipment. The new shooter is already aware they have illegal equipment. If something is to be said it needs to be friendly and constructive along the lines of: "I noticed you are new here and if you like our game and need any advice for equipment suggestions I'd be happy to help."

The club I normally shoot local matches are pretty much all cross pollinators. Many of the people that shoot IDPA there have been shooting USPSA, Steel Challenge, and man-on-man steel. IDPA is just more trigger time and another chance for skill evaluation.

[rmills]

Taran admits to "round dumping" to get a more convenient reload BUT the SO said it was OK. That SO should never SO a major match again as they obviously do not comprehend the rules. A correct procedural penalty was given to Taran for rehearsing on the El Prez stage. I don't agree with the DQ after the match. Poor decision in my opinion.

That said, there is no more "prejudice" against an IPSC/USPSA shooter at an IDPA match than there is for an IDPA shooter at an IPSC/USPSA match. There are several members of our local IDPA group who sometimes shoot in IPSC matches to get trigger time. When they wear their concealment garment and use cover (again, they are getting trigger time and not worried about winning the match), they are constantly ridiculed.

Also, the IPSC/USPSA shooters who showed up at an IPDA match and heard comments about their race gear should not be suprised as the equipment was probably illegal for the game. No different than me showing up to shoot in Limited 10 class with my open blaster and expecting to compete and have my scores count.

There is no grand conspiracy against IPSC/USPSA shooters in IDPA. Don't let this topic add fuel to the IDPA bashing fire.

Edited September 29, 2005 by rmills

[Sam]

I was an IDPA S/O for two seasons and ran the local club matches. I also shoot USPSA. I can think of plenty of times that I totally trashed a USPSA stage and said something like "boy my HF really stunk, but I wish they gave style points, cuz that had to look cool.

I think that IDPA has an element of "style points", in that a certain amount of subjectivity exists in the use of cover, tactical engagement order, gear, ect. These "points" are always going to be open to debate both on and off the range.

The lines are harder to define in IDPA. I'm talking about the rules, the things you can't do, because it goes against the spirit of the game.

Expectations seem to be the problem. If I go to an IDPA match expecting to burn down every stage, and thus win the match, I'm probably going to lose some "style points" and incur some procedurals. I may even get criticized by a guy who doesn't shoot as well as me for some non-shooting thing that I did or did not do. So what? It's IDPA! Gymnasts are judged in a very subjective manner in their competitions and it hasn't killed the sport. I'm a hardcore USPSA competitor. When I go to an IDPA match, it's just for fun and socialization. I just can't play there with the same intensity because I'm never quite sure what the rules are. When I shoot IDPA, I just turn it down a notch and place some of that focus on the more subjective parts of the game.

Bashing shooters from another dicipline is bad for the shooting sports. It doesn't matter which way the criticism is going. USPSA shooters need to be supportive of IDPA shooters and matches in their area and IDPA shooters,likewise. Yes, good natured barbs will be tossed back and forth. Just remember that line from the Virginian: "you better smile when you call me that".

[Joe D]

I too don't know what the IDPA vs IPSC issues are. Does not make sense to me. Anyone that pulls a trigger in competition is my bud. Knowing that there is some conflict between the two groups one does not need to fuel the fire. Taran Butler wearing his IPSC outfit to the IDPA Nationals shows poor judgement on his part to me. Not sure if he did, but that's what I heard.

I think by now everyone knows how Bill Wilson feels about USPSA. He needs to get past that, but that is a different can of worms. Most folks that shoot with me know my feelings about Bill Wilson.

My wife and I shoot both IDPA and IPSC. We tend to focus on IDPA more due to the large number of matches in Alabama. In Atlanta we shot more IPSC. I guess if I could shoot only one match it would be IDPA.

We have started getting some of the IPSC shooters at our local IDPA matches. I hope they felt welcome. Most of them shot in my squad the last match.

[jkelly]

In the few years that I've shot IDPA and USPSA I've often found a bias in those shooters who only shoot one or the other.

The IDPAers seem to think of themselves (and IDPA) as the purest derivative of "Practical" hand gun shooting while viewing the USPSAers as out of control and

dangerous.

The USPSAers seem to see themselves as the highest evolution of "Practical" shooters, while viewing IDPA shooters as overly rigid and sloth like.

Most crossover shooters seem to see the fallacy in both these views.

Personally I feel that the problems we see between IDPA and USPSA have less to do with their shooting philosophy then with the make up of the governing bodies.

One has an election process that gives the appearance of equality among shooters. The other is done by decree of it's owner, with input of selected members, and is seen as less representative of the members at large.

At this point in time is seems that the USPSA shooters (and those shooters who were damaged by this years rules changes) see the IDPA rules fiasco, Nationals DQ and the large drop in revlover shooters at this year's Nationals as evidence of poor leadership by the few. They are unlikely to let it go.

As both groups look down upon each other the animosity between them grows, and it's not likely to be solved on BE.com.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Sgtsvi]

I started out shooting IDPA and moved on to USPSA last year. It should not make any difference what kind of shirt anyone wears at an IDPA match. I have seen people show up for USPSA matches wearing cammo shorts, which are addressed in the USPSA rule book if I am not mistaken. These guys were not labeled tactical weenies or gunshop commandos by the IPSC shooters. I dont shoot major IDPA matches anymore. I shoot local weekly club match for the trigger time and spending time with friends. My money and time goes toward USPSA matches and equipment at this time. I think it is wrong to label a shooter and give him/her more attention because he/her is not wearing 5.11 pants and vest like all the other shooters.

Dave

[andrewcolglazier]

I began shooting IDPA in 1998, and have shot at the local, regional, state and national levels since that time. I'm a local club president and MD, I'm an SO and have SO'd at the regional level. I enjoy shooting IDPA quite a lot.

I recently began shooting USPSA, and find that I enjoy that game very much also. Since I have had the opportunity to see crossover in both directions, I can say that there has been plenty of manure tossed over the fence in both directions. I suppose this will continue; much of it is mild and very much tongue-in-cheek, and none of it would lead to hard feelings if folks had a little thicker skins.

All I can offer about the issue is the time-worn advice; "When in Rome......"

[Crusher]

After reading Mr. Butler's account from the IDPA Nationals, it would appear that there is an ongoing animosity toward USPSA shooters that reaches the highest level of match leadership/magagment. Truely dishearting that at this level of competiton and with so many new sponsers this year (including Coke) that this was handled in the fashion it was by the MD, furthermore it would appear that the decision making process (as to the DQ) was clouded by personal feelings and emotion on the part of the MD.

[Patrick Sweeney]

OK, let's get a handle on this USPSA vs. IDPA thing. As pointed out to me (and it made immediate, absolute sense when he said it) by one of my editors "USPSA and IDPA are martial arts." As in, different styles.

I had the priviledge of studying a number of different arts. What is a "proper" kick in Tae Kwon Do is going to get you admonished by the instructor in almost any wu shu style. Punches, too. If you go to a tournament specifically organized by, and for, wu shu, and do your gonzo balls-to-the-walls Tae Kwon Do form, expect low marks.

If you go to an IDPA match and shoot your gonzo, balls-to-the-walls Open style, expect lots of procedurals.

If you show up at an Indy car race with yoru NASCAR vehicle, expect problems.

So don't go trying to make IDPA into USPSA/IPSC, and vice versa.

[MikeFoley]

Not sure how to phrase this question, and not sure I wanted to get into these discussions, but:

In the martial arts and auto racing arenas you referenced, do those guys treat the people from the other sport with blatant disregard? Do they admonish someone who is good at something else, but is new to their world? I really have no slant on this either way, but both sports have folks who absolutely relish in picking on the guy who shoots the other one. This even exists on a smaller scale at local clubs. Usually, the guy getting the heat is a much better shooter than the guy giving it, and sometimes a better person.

[Fireant]

Should I take my USPSA patches off of my cover garment before the two state matches come up I plan on attending?

[chp5]

Anyone that pulls a trigger in competition is my bud.

I think by now everyone knows how Bill Wilson feels about USPSA. He needs to get past that, but that is a different can of worms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said Joe.

Edited December 21, 2005 by chp5

[Sgtsvi]

I can say that since I transitioned to USPSA, I have met a large cast of very welcoming shooters. None of them treated me rudely because I was a IDPA crossover. On the other hand, we have a large contention of IDPA only shooters in the DFW area that now talk about us as being malcontents, whiners, and prima donnas since we changed sports. I have not been pulled onto the IDPA bashing because I dont really care what they do. I just think it is wrong for a shooter to alter his way of dressing to avoid unwanted attention from match personnel.

Dave

[MVZ]

At our club TASC,in Nor. Cal. we have extended an open invite to any IDPA shooter to come shoot with us for free (first match) and experience shooting USPSA style. We let them know what our rules are but also tell them if they want to shoot the COF tacticaly thats OK. Those who have taken up the offer have really enjoyed the higher round count stages and have even been seen to leave partialy loaded mags on the ground.

Both are games and people need to relax and have fun

MVZ

[Mayonaise]

Blah Blah Blah

Man, Is this the most broken record since Weaver vs Isoseles?

Face it 99% of us shoot the sport we shoot for our own personal reasons. They are different games that attract people for different reasons.

It is nearly impossible to be dq'd (safety violations aside) or penalized in USPSA if you shoot with an IDPA mindset. It doesn't work the other way. Bottom line. It's not good, bad, better or worse, it is what it is.

There's always been an element of good natured ribbing back and forth here locally. At least that's the way I've viewed it. However, there is a vocal element on ALL of these forums that contribute little in the way of substance and mostly stir the pot. Some more subtle than others.

I won't comment on the Butler/May incident. I wasn't there, none of my business, and frankly I don't care. If John decides to make his position I'll be more informed but my opinion will remain mine. It's easy to arm chair these things. That's the problem.

If you don't shoot IDPA, keep your comments to yourself. If you don't shoot USPSA, keep your comments to yourself. You're opinion on something you aren't involved in is MEANINGLESS to those who are.

For the life of me I don't understand why some people feel the need to piss in other people's swimming pools.

[rtr]

I am amazed at the stories I hear about the way USPSA is viewed by SOME IDPA shooters, officials etc. I have not heard these same stories about IDPA shooters being discriminated against by USPSA shooters at USPSA matches. Those are just observations not accusations.

I think that IDPA has an element of "style points", in that a certain amount of subjectivity exists in the use of cover, tactical engagement order, gear, ect. These "points" are always going to be open to debate both on and off the range.

This is the biggest problem I have with IDPA (and why I no longer shoot it), in my view USPSAs rules are as objective as possible, whereas IDPAs are more subjective. With subjective rules it is nearly impossible to fairly enforce them the same way for every shooter and therefore the game is not the same for every shooter. This disparate enforcement of the rules creates ugly situations as evidenced by what happened at the Nationals.

[GmanCdp]

i've shot more local ipstick matches when i first started out 2 yrs ago,but didnt like shootin all the time behind the OPEN guys..decided to shoot and FOCUS on IDPA,because i liked the style of shooting it is,...but this year ,i've shot 2 major USPSA matches in the last 4 months [6 major IDPA matches a year] and JUST COULD not believe how fun it was...there is alot of differences in shooting uspsa/idpa...most of the time at MAJOR matches i see the B/high C,uspsa shooters end up in expert or very high sharpshooter class in idpa,but in uspsa shoots ,the experts and high sharpshooters end up as C or high D class....I say just shoot whatever YOU feel good at...and switch back and forth if you really like to bust caps......

[chp5]

Blah Blah Blah

Man, Is this the most broken record since Weaver vs Isoseles? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How did that Weaver vs Isoseles thing wind up anyway?

BTW - it was good to see you at the USPSA Cherokee match a few months back.

[MBaneACP]

Mark Perez, THANK YOU for standing up and starting this thread. It took nerve — and integrity. We may not agree on every doctrinaire point, but people like YOU are what makes the shooting sports so special.

Joe D...amen, brother...who pulls the trigger is my friend. When we were running the Media Program, I reached out to the Pink Pistols, the gay self-defense group, which sent waves of hsyteria through some elements of the business. My response was what you said — who pulls the trigger is my friend. Period.

Mr. Sweeney...I think you have nailed it. The shooting sports are at their most basic martial arts, with all their strengths and weaknesses. I recall once receiving "corporal punishment" at the hands of a Tang Soo Do instructor for "accidentally" using blocks derived from Okinawan karate (hellish efficient, too) in a session of TSD sparring. I saw double for hours after I came to. And, yes, every "IDPA is better than USPSA" or "IPSC us better than IDPA" line I've heard echoes the same stuff I've heard in dojos forever.

At the local IDPA club that my friend Tom Judd and I started as one of the first IDPA clubs in the country, I received the comment from an SO that, "you're nothing but a friggin' cheating gamer." I believe what set the SO off (that time) was my "game gear," a Blade-Tech vertical belt holster I use for winter concealed carry and the fact that I was shooting a 9mm 1911 with a pinned grip safety — all my 1911s have pinned grip safeties, as does Jeff Cooper's personal carry gun. It was also exactly the same set-up I'd shot at the IDPA Nationals the year before and had shot in IDPA competition off and on for years (my other IDPA competition rig was yet another Game Boy Blade-Tech and a BHP, although I occasionally shot a Glock out of a plastic Glock holster). I asked that I be allowed to shoot my "game gear" and that my targets not be scored nor my name appear in the official results. That was the last local IDPA match I attended.

Yes, I have occasionally made procedural mistakes at IDPA matches. Also at USPSA, Cowboy and 3-Gun matches. And you should see me screw up at Sporting Clays!!! I have accepted my procedurals with good grace and gone on. But I am not a cheater, and I resent like hell being called one.

Perhaps that's why I responded so strongly to Mr. Butler's situation. I have run a lot of IDPA matches, and I've seen a lot of people screw up, make procedural mistakes, have major brain farts, do the wrong thing at the wrong time. (I have even seen people who didn't want to perform an action as prescribed by IDPA; and in each case those people take themselves out of the official running *before* they ran the stage). But what I have not seen is people trying to *cheat,* to win by intentionally ignoring or going around the rulebook.

Perhaps it's time to wind down the rhetoric on all sides.

Michael B

[XRe]

I'll pitch in a couple of pennies, just for giggles. I have not ever shot an IDPA match. I would not be opposed to it - I don't have appropriate equipment, right now. I was around for the beginning of IDPA, and remember a lot of the hard feelings that went around in the beginning - not much seems to have changed, overall. There's still folks w/ grudges in both games.

I choose to shoot USPSA competition, because I don't like the subjective nature of IDPA. I also recognize that I would not be able to compete in other subjective sports. My wife is an equestrian - she rides dressage (highly subjective), and has also done some hunter/jumper (hunter is even *more* subjective, jumper is completely opposite). I prefer rules that don't change depending on who's officiating, penalties that are transparent to everyone all the time, and scoring that is based purely on ability and performance, not by some subjective judgement about my "form" or whatever.

When IDPA started up, I witnessed a little bit of IDPA bashing in the USPSA circles I was in at that time, but that quickly faded. I haven't witnessed *any* here in Texas where I've been shooting. In both places, though, I've had IDPA participants come up to me at USPSA matches and call me a cheater because I was either shooting a racegun, or shooting an L-10 gun out of a race rig. I've also had IDPA'ers say "Well, you may have finished 1st or 2nd in the match, but a lot of us were using cover....". Which I took to mean "Well, if we didn't choose to handicap ourselves, we'd beat you". My response - come play my game, and see if you can take me. Until then, I whooped your ass.

I agree w/ Cy and Joe, if you pull a trigger competitively, you're my friend - at least until you show yourself to be an asshat. Live and let live - and play by the rules of the game you're playing (and don't have sour grapes if you choose to play by the rules of a different game, and don't finish so well because of it - it's *your* choice, after all....).

BTW - if I had the cash to dump on some 8rd mags and an appropriate rig, I'd come shoot IDPA and figure the game out.... Trigger time is good....

[p99shooter]

Bear with me please: In 2002, I signed a lease for an apartment. The actual lease paperword was about 10 pages, but then there where 30 pages of addendums. I asked the property manager why there were so many addendums. The reason? Each addendum was in response to something that a former tenant did, like burning down an apartment, suing the property management company, and so on.

I bet that now, there are propably 40 pages of addendums to that same lease.

USPSA started in 1984. IDPA in 1997. The current USPSA rulebook is 116 pages. IDPA's is 82. Out of the 116 pages in the USPSA rule book, I bet some are there because a shooter did something that caused people to wonder "Hey, is that allowed?" Clarifications were added later.

Accept that because IDPA is younger that it will take more time to be concise and consistent in its rulings.

Edited to add: My club has a lot of USPSA shooters, and there is not bias at all.

Edited September 29, 2005 by p99shooter