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Uspsa Shooters At Idpa Matches


Mark Perez

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who pulls the trigger is my friend, this phrase should say it all

I have met very good people from both sides of the sport, and I thought 1911 vs glock was an issue, this is almost incomprehensible it is far worse than Baptist vs Catholics vs Jehovah witnesses, bottom line is our goal is all the same, however I have personally felt hostility/bias from uspsa shooters on this forum as well as off the forum, I can imagine that works both ways, but not as a rule of thumb from all members {there’s one in every crowd rings a bell} now as a I.d.p.a. shooter I can see benefits from shooting uspsa and carrying over the shooting techniques, I can also see where the rules could be a problem from force of habit for those shooters

Sure some rules really suck, but I would bet most of them have arrived out of necessity on both of the sports if bill did not want to “take back the sport” in the manner he wrote the book there would be another issue of copy cat of uspsa, I believe it may be a never ending issue, I do think the phrase mentioned above and as Brian mentioned in his book it is trigger time that is important{not an exact quote}, I believe in this regardless of whether you shoot pistols, rifles or shotgun I will end this by saying what a not so great man once said “can’t we all just get along”{LOL}

Edited to remove Taran Butler DQ reference. NH

Edited by Nik Habicht
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It is a game. It is labeled as a match or competition. There are winners. There are divisions. If you want it to be more of a surprise for people not to game it, get outsiders to paste and reset, don't let the competitors within eyesight of the stage, then keep them away from the others until they have all finished.

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I started shooting uspsa in Houston back in 97 or so. Moved to Dallas, and all you could find to shoot was idpa. Trigger time was trigger time. Shot idpa exclusively till this year and decided to make the switch to uspsa. I continue to be a club officer, MD, and SO for the Dallas IDPA club. I can say that without a doubt, if you're safe, you're welcome to shoot with us any time. Period.

As for my reception into uspsa, it was my observation that when the uspsa guys found out the group of folks I was shooting with were idpa crossovers, there was some apparent concern over safety. In fact, a few of my friends were DQ'd for breaking the 180, which is not a concern in idpa. Once the uspsa folks saw that the rest of us were safe (by like the 2nd or 3rd stage), and that we were breaking the 180 not because we were out of control, but used to shooting past the 180 we were made more than welcome. And yes, it took about 1 match for us to not be breaking the 180 anymore. ;)

Sadly, even around fellow shooters, there's an Asshat in every bunch. But that shouldn't effect the overal image of the sport in which they choose to shoot.

Derrick

Edited by Catfish
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I've edited a couple, and removed totally three posts that reference the Taran Butler DQ. Further references to the situation will meet the same fate --- let's keep this on Mark's topic.

From Mark Perez's opening post:

I was amazed that there is still a bias towards USPSA shooters from the IDPA crowd. Especially at a major match like the Nationals.

When a prominent figure like Sevigney says "..why don't you just wear a bullseye on your back" for wearing an IPSC shirt , then you know an issue still exist in this sport.

USPSA and IDPA both have much to offer each venue.

Both sports can learn from 'cross-over' shooters if given the chance.

IDPA-only shooters can learn a great deal from USPSA shooters if they remove the tactical blinders and open both their eyes and mind.

Lets try to keep this to a discussion of how best to improve relations between the two sports ---- which would be nice for the crossover shooters. I'd like it very much if every shooter going from USPSA to IDPA or from IDPA to USPSA experienced the same thing as a shooter from either sport going to a Steel or Bianchi or Glock match.....

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IMO, the larger picture is that any shooting sport bashing is bad for all of us as gun owners. I believe there are people that love to see us fight and divide ourselves. It makes it easier for them to erode our gun rights.

I have been primarily an IDPA shooter, but as I gain more time I plan on shooting more USPSA. Like our local USPSA GM (Rich Redovian) says, "any shooting is good shooting." If a USPSA shooter shows up to our IDPA match, that is fine with me, the more the merrier and maybe we will gain a regular looking for more trigger time.

Like others have said before, we all benefit by getting along. One sport is probably not going to get rid of the other, so why not help each other out?

Aaron Goodfellow

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"If you want it to be more of a surprise for people not to game it, get outsiders to paste and reset, don't let the competitors within eyesight of the stage, then keep them away from the others until they have all finished. "

+1

I shoot both. Of course they are games, but they are both martial arts, so one of their purposes is to train for bad things that might happen in the real world. Read 1 or 2 pages of either rulebook, and you'll see both are just "Cops and Robbers" for big kids.

IDPA's rules seem more arbitrary, and the interpretations change more. The rules and stages result in a more scripted event, which seems to discourage creativity. Sometimes those rules can force you to do tactically stupid things, like not reloading while you're moving to cover.

I doubt any USPSA shooter would think that standing in the open and blasting away would be a smart move in a real gunfight. And what really bothers me about USPSA is the Conga Line and airgunning. There's a world of difference between carefully rehearsing each step and each shot, and having a group of baddies jump out and attack you.

I have a blast at both matches, though. Competition quickly showed that my gun and my brain both had a tendency to jam under pressure. I'll keep shooting both.

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That's it. I will come clean now (the first step in addmitting a disease)

Hi, my name is Crusher and I AM A GAMER, I LOVE the action shooting GAME's and quite frankly CAN NEVER SHOOT ENOUGH to be entirely content. I truely enjoy the competion and LOVE TO WIN EVEN MORE. When I do NOT win I get somewhat dismayed and tend to practice the items that the games indicate I need work on, right now it is support hand shooting, I'm slow (by my standards) on my finger and my splits but I am working to improve that.

As an OCD Shooter I opperate within the rules of whatever GAME I play but "right on the edge" ("If you ain't on the edge you are taking up TOO MUCH space").

If you see me on the range at match's please understand I am working toward accepting my disease and while I do not ask for your pity, I DO ASK for your understanding and compassion.

Thank you all in advance. B)

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It's a game guy's

IPSC is a game!

USPSA is a game!

IDPA is a game!

In each of them they keep score! It's a game!

Ive seen some shooters who play the game by the letter of the rules and others who push and bend the rules as far as they can get away with (IDPA & IPSC)

TRaining? for what? Here in No. Kalif. it's very difficult if not impossible to get a CCW. Recent Match of 40+ shooters = 3 LE's and the rest Civilians NOT A CCW AMONG THEM!!!

IT'S A GAME!!!!! HAVE FUN!!!! JUST SHOOT!!!!

mvz

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The "game" factor isn't the issue here - we all know they are games or recreational past-time.

The point is the bias that some folks hold against players of the other sports , it has to stop.

The question is - how to accomplish that objective ?

until that day,

Mark

Edited by Mark Perez
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The question is - how to accomplish that objective ?

Stop tolerating it from your peers (ie, if you're a USPSA shooter, and you hear someone IDPA bashing, explain to them that they're an ignorant idiot, and vice versa)

Cross train, and be exceptionally polite while you're "on the other side" - show the ignorants that they're claims are unfounded by example

Cultivate cooperation and acceptance actively between the sports - drag folks out w/ you to shoot the other matches, lend guns and gear if you have it to lend and they need it to participate, etc.

If you're one of the ignorants, grow up :)

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The question is - how to accomplish that objective ?

Stop tolerating it from your peers (ie, if you're a USPSA shooter, and you hear someone IDPA bashing, explain to them that they're an ignorant idiot, and vice versa)

Cross train, and be exceptionally polite while you're "on the other side" - show the ignorants that they're claims are unfounded by example

Cultivate cooperation and acceptance actively between the sports - drag folks out w/ you to shoot the other matches, lend guns and gear if you have it to lend and they need it to participate, etc.

If you're one of the ignorants, grow up :)

Best post in this discussion. Exactly what each "side" should be doing.

Aaron Goodfellow

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Wow,

I was sick for a day or two and you guys wrote a book. I have just re-read all the posts in this thread in one sitting, and there is some good stuff being typed. There is also considerable IDPA bashing in this thread, which was supposed to be about not bashing. To Whit:

"IDPA-only shooters can learn a great deal from USPSA shooters if they remove the tactical blinders and open both their eyes and mind."

"I think once IDPA recognizes and accepts that it is second fiddle to USPSA/IPSC there will be less bias towards USPSA shooters."

"yes, IDPA is still a game and many people need to come to terms with that"

"I may even get criticized by a guy who doesn't shoot as well as me for some non-shooting thing that I did or did not do."

"I don't want any part of that. It used to be fun, but now anybody with any skills just gets crucified by those Puritans."

"It's a game guy's"

There are more, but these will do for now.

Now each of these may have been typed in innocence.... giving the benefit of the doubt here, but they are not well received by someone that likes IDPA. It makes it seem as if every single USPSA shooter is smarter than all IDPA shooters. It makes it seem as if every single USPSA shooter is faster than all IDPA shooters. It makes it seem as if everyone shooting IDPA doesn't know that scores are kept.

So when things like this are typed, even in innocence, they widen the gap between the two sports.

If some of you have been treated unfairly at IDPA or USPSA, or CASS matches, then I am truly sorry. But maybe you all should look within. It is my experience that anyone that shows up with a chip on their shoulder, makes problems where ever they go. That is people that would say the things above, probably do have problems at cross-over matches. Ya think?

I shoot USPSA matches in the winter to fill out my schedule, and have been accepted as one of the guys. But if I showed up with the attitude that my $hit doesn't stink, these people have no idea what they are doing, and if they would just listen to me, I could really enlighten them.... then I expect my acceptance would be different.

We have several local USPSA shooters come to our IDPA matches from time to time, usually when they don't have a match close to shoot. The ones that are friendly and try to shoot IDPA are well received. For our club, this is most. We have had one fellow show up that thought he was God's gift to shooting, and he argued his way through the whole day. Nothing about IDPA made sense. Why didn't we do it like USPSA. Why can't you guys just bow at my feet. He claimed that those of us with lesser skills were going out of our way to make it hard on him.... that is follow the IDPA rules. He left less than impressed with us, and we him. Too bad for all involved. The other 5 or 6 USPSA shooters at the match had no problem, and made some new friends. They came from the same sport, shot the same equipment, dealt with the same COFs and SOs and MD, and yet one of them had problems. Go figure.

So what I'm saying is if you are treated poorly at USPSA or IDPA or Joe's shooting emporium, maybe you need to look in the mirror. There are lots of cross over shooters doing so without problem. Heck, there were lots of cross over shooters at the Nats.

Ken Reed

"You are what you do, everything else is just talk."

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I doubt any USPSA shooter would think that standing in the open and blasting away would be a smart move in a real gunfight. And what really bothers me about USPSA is the Conga Line and airgunning. There's a world of difference between carefully rehearsing each step and each shot, and having a group of baddies jump out and attack you.

I'm no expert, but I disagree. I think that the IPSC stage analysis and conga lines have a very usefull side effect. I think that it train your brain to look at a situation and think of the best way to deal with it. Your brain needs execise too. Sure, being able to react when surprised is important, but maybe if you observed in detail hundreds stages and given much thought on how certain situations need to be aproached, then when you are surprised your ability to quickly come up with a plan would be greatly improved.

I think not examining courses of fire and learning how to quickly break them down, its not unlike going to a marathon, but not jogging before hand, in the hope that the marathon would show you how you would really perform if you had to run from Marathon to Athens to announce that the Persians have invaded. It might be a realistic scenario if you were a couch potato, but Philippides was a trained message runner. I bet he jogged a lot.

Back on topic, I think the FIRST step that the IDPA and USPSA comunities need to take is forget some words. Words like "tactical", "gamer", and "cheater", because they can all be used insultingly and it creates a lot of tension. There is nothing wrong with an IDPA shooter showing up and and USPSA match and shooting from cover. It doesnt make him a wannabe, or a mall ninja, he just likes to shoot that way, perhaphs with keeping in mind some aspects of real life. On the other hand, a USPSA shooter showing up at an IDPA match and trying to figure out the fastest way, is not cheating. He is trying to win, an admirable goal in a GAME and in a real life gun battle. If you think that a shooter is breaking the rules, then hit him with the scoring penalties proscribed by the rule book and move on. No need to call that shooter names, no matter how much is that ingrained in your sport culture. "You get on procedural penalty" sounds a lot better then "I'm gonna ding you one, you cheater."

I dont shoot IDPA. If I want the rules to be interpreted by the RO, I would ask my wife to run me on every stage. There are some things which you can not always write rules for and which need to be left to the RO if your game cares deeply about them. However I can't bring myself to play a game like that.

Edited by Vlad
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I shoot both IDPA and USPSA. Plus steel, 3-gun, tactical, etc... Pretty much anything I can find where I use real guns (except bullseye stuff).

Each GAME (and every one of them is a GAME) has its own rules and I always run right on the edge of those rules. But the bottom line is, you have to play each sport by the rules of that sport -- or at least by the rules of that sport as interpreted by the match officials.

That said -- I am now a bit worried about how IDPA has chosen to interpret their rules -- specifically "Gross unsportsmanlike conduct". Because, lets face it -- many USPSA shooters have a mindset of pushing the rules to the n'th degree. In USPSA this is not a problem: push the rules too much yet get a procedurals. In IDPA it now seems that if you push the rules too much, even if you don't get procedurals, you may get DQ'ed.

If lets say for example, that a couple of SOs warn me not to check angles, look around corners, etc during the course of a match (not that this would ever happen to me), and that later those SOs get together and talk about the competitors they ran that day. It would appear that it is entirely possible that I could be DQ'ed even though I had already completed the match and had not received a single procedural.

Lets take this concept one step further and say for instance, that I had a disagreement with an SO during the match and the conversation got heated. What is to stop this SO from attempting to get me DQ'ed after the fact during one of these secret SO meetings?

I do like to shoot IDPA. I just happen to think that the subjectiveness of the rules allows personal feelings to affect decisions too much. Why not just accept that fact that it is a GAME and people want to win. If a shooter violates the rules, then asses penalties as needed. Don't threaten me with being DQ'ed after my match is complete and I am already driving to the next one.

I think IDPA done right is absolutely a thrill to shoot. If you want to see IDPA done the best it can be, come shoot the NE Championship with me in Cortland, NY next May!

Of course this is all just my opinion -- I could be wrong.

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Who pulls the trigger is my friend - Amen

Trigger time is trigger time. Pick your sport and play. While your there da ruls is da ruls. Rules in whatever sport need to be clear and enforced on the spot.

It's all a game so have fun! Don't bitch at the other guy (or gal) because they like a game other than yours. To each his own and I wish everyone well in their personal choice.

I've tried IDPA but I choose to shoot USPSA becase I like the higher round count. Since I have to drive an hour or more to go to a match I want to bust as many caps as I can while I'm there. If IDPA had as high a round count I might give it a whirl.

In the end do not all our hammers strike primer? Brother and Sisters we are pistol shooters one and all! Have we all not heard the starting beep? :(

KUMBAYA MY LORD.... KUMBAYA! :D

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Nothing to add to the IDPA and IPSC discussion (note I didn't say vs.) but I just wanted to add that I've enjoyed this thread, actually gotten some good ideas that I'm going to take away from it, and I wanted to let the mods know how much I've appreciate the job they've done with this one. Given the volatile nature of the topic, I'm sure it hasn't been easy to let it keep going and since I was a poster in the "the mods are too mean" thread, I wanted to be sure to now say Good job guys!

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And what really bothers me about USPSA is the Conga Line and airgunning. There's a world of difference between carefully rehearsing each step and each shot, and having a group of baddies jump out and attack you.

I'm no expert, but I disagree. I think that the IPSC stage analysis and conga lines have a very usefull side effect.  I think that it train your brain to look at a situation and think of the best way to deal with it. Your brain needs execise too.

Vlad, you just made a great point. Breaking down different stages should give your brain some macros to use if you ever end up in trouble. I do think we'd benefit from having to break the stages down in realtime, instead of having five or ten minutes to do so before stepping up. Reminds me of the old Dick Tracy cartoons - remember the little guy that would get himself in deep trouble, then hold out his hand and say, "HOLD EVERYTHING! Dick Tracy, calling Dick Tracy!"

These are all most definitely games with rules and scores. We're all gamers if we play the games, because we try to gain every available advantage within the rules. In competition I shoot guns that keep me competitive, rather than smaller ones that are convenient enough to carry around everywhere. Almost everyone reloads ammo, tailored to the power factor of their particular game. And during matches I wear boots or athletic shoes and clothes that won't hold me back, instead of a suit and tie. Does that make me a gamer?

If we go to far, we get penalized. If the rules aren't keeping people from taking unfair advantages, then change the rules. But don't criticize the shooters for doing anything that's legal under those rules.

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