Uspsa Shooters At Idpa Matches

[Clyde]

I have not had any issues to date.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Again, don't try to make each something it isn't, nor force it into the other's mold. OK, so an IDPA shooter says "You beat us, but we used cover" Then we know they weren't paying attention. The definition of cover differs in each game. As do many other terms.

Mike, I understand completely using the "wrong" block and being chewed out for it. My master instructor was down on tournaments. "You'll learn bad habits." So I entered a full-contact match without telling him. And was DQ'd for excessive contact. It seemed that "full contact" didn't allow elbows, knees, and foot sweeps, and after the third pulped opponent someone said "That's not karate/kempo/Tae Kwon Do you can't do that here" I was gone. Mr. Shim just shook his head. "Pat, what did I tell you?"

You want to play a game, read the rules. If you don't like the rules, either grit your teeth or go someplace else.

Now if the rules are vague, unclear, flexible or subject to change, that's something else.

[9x45]

I shoot USPSA and IDPA I use a Glock 17 with Heines sights, G21 mag release and 3.5lb connector (USPSA Limited Minor and IDPA ESP) from a FIST IWB holster and 2 single BladeTech mag pouches behind the hip on a Wilderness Tactical belt. I always wear blue jeans and a plain drab T shirt for USPSA and a Hawaiian shirt for IDPA. In all the years of shooting USPSA matches, at all the different clubs including sectionals, no one has ever had anything to say, except 'Do you understand the course of fire?' Which is the way it should be. Sometimes if I choose to shoot from concealment and reload from cover, I sometimes draw an occasional 'Why would anyone want to do that?'

Now when I shoot IDPA it's a different story. One time an RO declared my holster 'unsafe' so I put on a straight drop Blade Tech belt holster. Another time I was told my 2nd mag pouch was 'too far back'. Countless courses of fire have had cover available which mandates slicing the pie, but I was told it was ok to look over the top and shoot 2 each (not sequentially either and they were less than 2 yards apart). In one case I was given a procedural from the MD, but got it cleared by the stage RO who said he let everyone do it that way. Another time my buddy dumped a couple of 'C' hits to gain a slide lock reload. When I shot it, the RO's said 'We don't exactly know what your buddy did, but if you do it, it's a procedural' One time I got dinged for opening the door with my gun and another time for sticking the gun thru the window and shooting. Another big misunderstanding is mixing of Tactical and Sequential priorities. One time a stage had you load a loose mag, stick it into the gun and engage 3 threats. While everyone else loaded 10 and shot 6, my buddies and I only loaded 4 and took advantage of the shoot thru. Well we all got dinged not having a fully charged weapon, although that only applies if the required round count exceeds the weapon capacity and for failing to fire 6 shots. There is no rule for that, except that shoot thru's count. Anyway it seems like in IDPA the best approach is not to question the stage design but simply ask the RO how would you like me to shoot this. OK, I guess that's fair if I decide to play IDPA (but it takes all the fun out of it). And now this new 'emergency reload' rule. That's gotta be procedural heaven. At least I'm OK with the new holster rule using a IWB. The one issue that I truly object to is those fake vests like the 511 Tactical. First big state match I went to it looked like a press & photographer's convention. No one wears those in real life.

You only get out of each game what you put into it, but USPSA has clearly done more to move closer to IDPA shooters, with the Production & Limited 10 Divisions, and the new Single Stack Provisional, than IDPA has done for IDPA.

[MikeFoley]

Today in a conversation with a fellow shooter who I used to shoot IDPA with, and now shoot USPSA with 5-8 times a month with, I found myself making this statement: "I don't want any part of that. It used to be fun, but now anybody with any skills just gets crucified by those Puritans." Now that seems harsh, but it is the perception of lots of people. I am not bashing either sport, but lots of people find themselves in disagreement with something they once enjoyed to the point they want no part of it, fine do what you like, but don't start the us vs. them argument with me every time you get the chance.

I also think that great USPSA shooters use more science, and great IDPA shooters use more art. This is a key difference in the way we solve problems. Neither is bad, but if you don't subscribe to the theory by which you are penalized, then it seems unfair, and no fun. There is a lot of theory of the founders in both sports, and it is stronger in one than the other. Their theory is not the final word, gunfight, competition, or otherwise.

If you are big enough to be an SO/RO/MD/RM then you oughta be big enough to tell a man eye to eye what his penalty is, and why you are giving it to him. In one sport, I always thought there was to much left to SO discretion and interpretation, and that it was way too subjective to be a consistent experience for each competitor.

[MikeFoley]

. At least I'm OK with the new holster rule using a IWB. The one issue that I truly object to is those fake vests like the 511 Tactical. First big state match I went to it looked like a press & photographer's convention. No one wears those in real life.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL, when someone rolls up to the eatery or hotel with one of those on, in 90 degree heat, he might as well be wearing a sign that says "Hey, look, I got a gun, and I think you are too dumb to figure that out." Thank goodness for shirts that you can wear untucked, and for pocket holsters. (and for winter when it is easiest to conceal)

[rubberneck]

"I don't want any part of that.  It used to be fun, but now anybody with any skills just gets crucified by those Puritans." 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well good for you. As an IDPA shooter this is becoming one of the biggest turnoff's about this board. I get that you don't like shooting IDPA any more as you have made that quite clear but do we really have to sit here and listen to your reasons why? I am sure you think your reasons are valid but they are your reasons so try keeping them to yourself. Have fun shooting USPSA a sport that I don't shoot but have never once utter a bad word about it.

You say you are not bashing either sport but no logical person could draw that conclusion after reading your comment. I wonder if TGO, Dave S, Jerry, et alia feel like they get "crucified by the Puritans" when shooting IDPA.

[Airedale]

You say you are not bashing either sport but no logical person could draw that conclusion after reading your comment. I wonder if TGO, Dave S, Jerry, et alia feel like they get "crucified by the Puritans" when shooting IDPA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm very logical and I know Fomeister quite well. I didn't interpret it the way you did.

Interesting.

Dave

[rubberneck]

You say you are not bashing either sport but no logical person could draw that conclusion after reading your comment. I wonder if TGO, Dave S, Jerry, et alia feel like they get "crucified by the Puritans" when shooting IDPA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm very logical and I know Fomeister quite well. I didn't interpret it the way you did.

Interesting.

Dave

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess something is getting lsot in the translation because it seemed quite clear to me. I could be wrong.

[Mark Perez]

Gents ,

Thanks for the comments. before this thread takes a turn for the worst, please contribute something in the positive and leave the negative vibes for other places.

What I was getting at in the opening was to take something away from the Nationals incident , learn from whatever lessons you think are there and apply some of them at the local level and above.

For starters , things like :

• Apply a PE when it is warranted . FTDR included.
  
• Dump the IPSC vs. IDPA attitude - it looks like in most cases this is already happening and that is a good thing
  
• Apply the rules fairly across the board .
  
• Stay current on the rulebook , there are some post dated rules that will take effect in the future.
  

until that day,

mark

[MikeFoley]

OK, both sports have their problems. This is a place where we can discuss methods, techniques, recent happenings, etc. I thought my own words were a little harsh, and I am well aware that my opinions are useless to most. I fully support people shooting IDPA, and it was a really fun game when I shot it and SO'd too. There are many good people there who shoot it that are friends, and even some of them call all USPSA shooters gamers, the dark side, unrealistic, etc. If you never shoot USPSA, then I would wonder why? Try it, you might like it. I have shot IDPA, USPSA, 3 gun, Steel Challenge, ICORE, bullseye, GSSF, skeet, trap, archery, and others at least once. I did shoot IDPA for 3 years. I SO'd my local match every month, and one state match. I liked the idea, I liked the shooting, and I advertise our local match to the same extent as USPSA, just don't shoot it. I would have shot it this month, but my membership is not current, and has to be to shoot it, my gear may no longer be compliant for whatever reason, and the round count wasn't worth the wait and fees (by the time I renewed, paid the fee, etc.) so I practiced in an empty bay, with my carry gun. While I was there, I had many pleasant encounters, and one person told me about the dark side of IPSC. These last few encounters seem to be what made me make my statement, and it seems I am not alone. The belligerent and comabative nature exhibited in this thread alone, proves my point.

The growing pains that cause the interest, and the problems, can be fixed I think. I would like to see support in place such that every shooter gets a consistent experience. It is apparent to me that I am no longer welcome giving ideas to this section of the forum, though I feel like everyone has something to contribute. If a paid consultant sat down and looked at the shooting sports without bias, then it would be interesting to see what their recommendations were to all of them.

[Clyde]

Group Hug -

[MikeFoley]

Group Hug - 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tactical or Practical rules?

[tewlman]

Group Hug - 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Group Hug...you kill me clyde.

Can't we all just get along?

[Clyde]

fully clothed

[tewlman]

thanks for clearing that up

[carinab]

Blah Blah Blah

Man, Is this the most broken record since Weaver vs Isoseles? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had this discussion today with a guy that shoots neither IDPA or IPSC but has taken lot's of classes from <insert shooting school name here>

blah, blah, blah....that cracks me up!

[TDean]

tewlman....."MUZZLE!!!"

[tewlman]

tewlman....."MUZZLE!!!" 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My initial response was unfair so lets just say...

LOOK OUT! wild bald man on the loose

Edited September 29, 2005 by tewlman

[9x45]

It's like the same issue between USPSA multi gun and 'Outlaw' 3 gun matches. I shoot both but I like the Supersitition Mystery Mountain rules better than USPSA. Even though there are .308Win and .223Rem rifles, there is no power floor, therfore no major or minor. Since there is no power floor, 2 hits anywhere on paper is good, or 1 A zone is good. As for steel, it has to fall. If your 40S&W can't knock it over, and my 9mm can, then it's a self correcting problem. Same for the rifle on Larue flashers. A good 55gr bullet hit at 350 yards will activate them. And there is no blowing by long range steel or flying clays. Shoot whatever you want from your shotgun. Maybe someday USPSA can drop the whole major/minor thing.

I like to shoot the Steel Challenge, but only from concealment to practice before a big IDPA match. I shot the 10th Annual IRC (ICORE) and won my class, but I like USPSA & IDPA better. I used to shoot Bullseye in the dead of winter when I lived in the Midwest, but I didn't like it. Never shot Cowboy action, but I don't think I would like that either. Not enough bullets in any weapon, especially the 2 round shotgun. It reminds me of Boxer and Feinsteins latest proposal, 1 in the tube and 1 in the mag. The rest of the rounds are in the mail...

[andrewcolglazier]

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I think, in addition to what you have outlined below, procedures need to be ingrained in the rulebook to deal with situations just like we are talking about. That way both the shooter and the match officials have something concrete to work with and expect, no surprises and nothing that can be construed or mis-construed as a back-room deal.

While IDPA may be a new sport compared to USPSA, there isn't any need to re-invent the wheel when anticipating potential problems which have already occurred in another shooting sport. It is completely foreseeable that, as IDPA grows in popularity and shooting numbers, big-namers will come in to take part. They have a lot on the line, and, along with us "also-rans" certainly would appreciate clarity.

Andy C.

Gents ,

Thanks for the comments. before this thread takes a turn for the worst, please contribute something in the positive and leave the negative vibes for other places.

What I was getting at in the opening was to take something away from the Nationals incident , learn from whatever lessons you think are there and apply some of them at the local level and above.

For starters , things like :

• Apply a PE when it is warranted . FTDR included.
  
• Dump the IPSC vs. IDPA attitude - it looks like in most cases this is already happening and that is a good thing 
  
• Apply the rules fairly across the board .
  
• Stay current on the rulebook , there are some post dated rules that will take effect in the future.
  

until that day,

mark

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[G.Lee]

I am sorry anyone would ever think of Taran as a "cheat" when that is the last thing he would ever do. I have trained and shot local matches with him. I can say he is a good friend and someone who started me in the shooting games several years ago. I barrowed guns and gear to get going and have never looked back. Taran has had a lot of good matches and some bad. He lets me know about them all. When he called me about the forum I had to see it for my self. Funny thing is Taran is not really pissed about it like I thought he would be. He was more upset about his gun not working perfectly. IDPA is not his game but he told me last night he is going back again next year even after what happened. I told him he was crazy. He said he has to much fun with friends there and "so what if someone does like me". After thinking about he has the right idea. So what...go have some fun. Isn't that why we do it in the place no matter what style your into?

[rledwards]

Taran admits to "round dumping" to get a more convenient reload BUT the SO said it was OK. That SO should never SO a major match again as they obviously do not comprehend the rules.

Taran (in my opinion) misspoke when he said he asked if he could "dump" a round into one of the target heads and then reload and engage the remaining 4 head shots. If you will review the stage he was refering to (Stage 7) from the 2004 Nationals - stage discriptions available at link below- you will see that the stage required 2 rds to each of 5 targets in Tactical Priority and then re-engagement of each target with 1 head shot in Tactical Priority. Reading between the lines of Taran's post and being familiar with the stage he was refering to, I believe that he meant to say he asked the SO if it was ok to shoot one of the head shots with the last round in his pistol before performing a slide-lock reload and then engaging the remaining 4 targets with head shots. Neither he nor the SO did anything wrong in this scenario as far as "round dumping" goes! The only thing Taran apparently did wrong was not fire that 11th round into the correct target (tactical priority), since he received a procedural penalty for incorrect target engagement.

Mr. Mills needs to do a little more research before attacking the SO. And, no, it wasn't me, but I did shoot the Nationals last year and I do remember the stage.

--Lin

http://www.idpa.com/matchresults/2004_nati..._match_book.pdf

[MikeFoley]

Here's athe perfect time to talk about co-operation and learning. Lin just chimed in here, and he is our MD for our local IDPA club. He is also our pistol club president, in a club that hosts USPSA, IDPA, SASS, GSSF, and Bullseye matches. Though he doesn't shoot USPSA, we work together for the good of both sports. He has light heartedly referred to gamers and the dark side, but in good humor. My first experiences as an action shooter, and as a range safety officer were under his guidance. He got me involved at the club level in many ways. I consider him to be of high integrity and good character. We work together for the good of all pistol shooting sports, and peacefully coexist. We share props and steel. We share shooters that shoot both disciplines. Our upcoming GSSF match will have USPSA ROs and IDPA SOs working side by side, and having fun together. This can be done. I think I can still shoot IDPA, thought I didn't in the above referenced situation, but I would expect that I would be sloppy at the rules and procedures, and that I would get penalties. Lin would likely tell me the penalty, the rule, and how I could have done better. I understand that the Nationals is not an easy place to do constructive criticism with a pro shooter. I wonder so I will ask, and the response can be offline if he prefers.

Lin, How do you feel about a DQ after the fact? How do you feel about SOs that do not give penalties they should? Do you think that these issues can be avoided in the future and if so how? I will value his response, whether I agree with it or not, because he has been there and done that. My previous point about gaining constructive criticism from outside of our own sports may have some merit.

[MBaneACP]

Hey Mark...can I put in a few other "take-home" points for consideration?

• Let's go easy on the "HE'S A CHEATER" mentality at matches. Earning a procedural or even an FTDR doesn't mean the person is trying to cheat. I hate to sound all Biblical here, but before you label a fellow shooter a "cheater," (or the "gross unsportsmanlike conduct" euphemism) you might stop to consider how you would feel in the same circumstances if the charges were levied against you.

• Accept that while everyone who shoots a sport SHOULD absolutely follow the rules of that sport, not everyone will — or even should — agree that the rules of that (or, truly, ANY) sport are anything more than ARBITRARY. For example, I teach, as do some of the top tactical trainers in the country, that "gaming" is a fundamental survival skill. OTOH, the current thinking in IDPA is "be surprised." Many people agree with Col. Jeff Cooper, who defined surprise as a tragic failure of awareness. Ditto on the tactical reload/reload with retention...one of the major police training publications last year specifically listed the IDPA style of reload as a potential death trap and urged all police trainers to abandon it. No one has a corner on the "what works" market. "Tactics" and tactical" are fluid concepts!

• Avoid thinking that because you're good at a GAME, you're a Stealthy Ninja Killer and/or the reincarnation of Doc Holliday. A lot of us thought that back when we started these games; then, the first time someone pointed a gun at me for real — a Glock 17, which I was readily able to identify — I nearly wet myself. I defer to Jim Cirillo, who in fact may well be the reincarnation of Doc Holliday and who shot on my squad at the Columbia Invitational inaugural IDPA match — "Tactical, schmactical," he said. "Until the targets shoot back with lead it's all just punching holes in paper."

• Avoid confusing "competing" with "training." Because of my position, I've been lucky enough to work with some of the finest civilian, police and military trainers in the world...and training is nothing like competing. Anytime you run a clock and keep score, be assured that you are "competing." IMO, the greatest benefits of competition are learning how to shoot under stress and internalizing gunhandling skills.

• If you really want to know what tactics work well for you, I encourage you to seek out simulation training, whether Air Soft or Simunitions. I promise you it will open your eyes (and cause you a substantial amount of pain)!

Just some stuff to think about!

Michael B

[MikeFoley]

Great post MBane. I gotta remember that surprise is a tragic failure of awareness line from the Col. I think I am going to start ending all my posts with this smilie whether it applies or not.