Production gun wrong start position

[oddjob]

This weekend we had a Production shooter start a stage cocked and locked (CZ Shadow 2).  Shooter finishes the stage and hits the "approve" button on the tablet.  Shooter goes to the next stage & at "make ready" does the same thing.  The RO tells shooter this is not allowed and instructs shooter hammer must be down.  Shooter complies and states to RO the previous stage was shot with a cocked & locked position.  Shooter  finishes second stage.

 

The Range Master (RM) was called.  RM asks shooter to re-shoot the previous stage & shooter agrees.  No drama at all.

 

I was sitting with the RO's afterwards and listened to the discussion.  One RO said a bump to Open should have been done.  The other RO's said the shooter should not be bumped to Open and the score stands. I (not a RO) mentioned the shooter "approved" the score so it was too late to do anything.  The RO's that were on the stage are good RO's.....They just simply missed it.  No one (other than the shooter) saw the cocked & locked position.   

 

Questions:  1) Bump to Open?

                     2) Re-shoot appropriate?  What if the shooter refuses the re-shoot (cause they did really well the first time)?

                     3) Shooter approval of the score negate the "bump" and/or re-shoot?

                     4) Is a shooter's confession good enough when no one else saw the error?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[conditionone]

Bump to limited

[NickBlasta]

It's not an invalid start position and so the competitor should not get a reshoot. It's covered by the firearm ready condition rules and Appendix D for production.

 

The authorized ready condition for guns with hammers in production is "hammer down" (D4 #1), if you are in a different but valid ready condition (cocked and locked) you're simply violating the gear rules and go to open (6.2.5.1).

[bret]

5 hours ago, oddjob said:

This weekend we had a Production shooter start a stage cocked and locked (CZ Shadow 2).  Shooter finishes the stage and hits the "approve" button on the tablet.  Shooter goes to the next stage & at "make ready" does the same thing.  The RO tells shooter this is not allowed and instructs shooter hammer must be down.  Shooter complies and states to RO the previous stage was shot with a cocked & locked position.  Shooter  finishes second stage.

 

The Range Master (RM) was called.  RM asks shooter to re-shoot the previous stage & shooter agrees.  No drama at all.

 

I was sitting with the RO's afterwards and listened to the discussion.  One RO said a bump to Open should have been done.  The other RO's said the shooter should not be bumped to Open and the score stands. I (not a RO) mentioned the shooter "approved" the score so it was too late to do anything.  The RO's that were on the stage are good RO's.....They just simply missed it.  No one (other than the shooter) saw the cocked & locked position.   

 

Questions:  1) Bump to Open?

                     2) Re-shoot appropriate?  What if the shooter refuses the re-shoot (cause they did really well the first time)?

                     3) Shooter approval of the score negate the "bump" and/or re-shoot?

                     4) Is a shooter's confession good enough when no one else saw the error?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Bump to Open

 

It is the shooters responsibility to prepare their gun for the stage, p

 

After the shooter finished the stage, the RM should have been notified the shooter started with a production gun cocked with safety on at start and the RM should have moved him to open.

 

This is not a wrong start position issue, it is a wrong ready condition issue and a bump to open.

 

The second R.O. needs to learn the rules and follow them, he should have let the shooter shoot the stage and then inform the RM tjatvthe production shooter started with the hammer cocked and safety on.

 

What rule supports a reshoot?

 

If you are going to be an R.O. RM you need to know the rules,  follow them and not make s#!t up.

[bret]

34 minutes ago, conditionone said:

Bump to limited

What rule ?

[Sarge]

41 minutes ago, conditionone said:

Bump to limited

No such animal.

[robchavous]

As soon as the gun was holstered cocked and locked it was a bump to Open.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[jcc7x7]

Ro didn't start him correctly.

Score was approved.

New stage ro did his job of starting shooter correctly.

Nothing else to do.

 

Ie, good ole boy rules.

Go back and shoot last stage over. 

Whatever works, LoL

[RJH]

Score stands as originally shot.   Just like if your equipment is out of whack and you get away with it, you don't get retroactively bumped to open.  Had the RO caught it then it would be a bump to open.  On the second stage the shooter should have been bumped to open, but i am assuming it was a new shooter since he was making a basic mistake and I have no issue with the RO correcting the issue (even though it should be a bump to open) and allowing the shooter to continue in production. Still assuming it was a new shooter i would consider it allowable coaching and not stress over it

[bret]

5 minutes ago, jcc7x7 said:

Ro didn't start him correctly.

Score was approved.

New stage ro did his job of starting shooter correctly.

Nothing else to do.

 

Ie, good ole boy rules.

Go back and shoot last stage over. 

Whatever works, LoL

Second RO screwed up, what rule after make ready says the r.o. is to tell the shooter their gun is not in the correct ready condition for production? 

 

If the r.o. sees a shooter put a mag in but doesn't rack the slide, should the r.o. tell the shooter to rack the slide?

[bret]

38 minutes ago, robchavous said:

As soon as the gun was holstered cocked and locked it was a bump to Open.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

Wrong, once he started the stage in that condition he is bumped to open.

 

If he would have realized before the beep it was not correct, he could have fixed it.

[robchavous]

8 minutes ago, bret said:

Wrong, once he started the stage in that condition he is bumped to open.

 

If he would have realized before the beep it was not correct, he could have fixed it.

 

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division

 

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.

 

Once "Make Ready" has been issued everything that follows is during the course of fire.  So if you holster the gun after getting that command in start condition not valid for your division you are bumped to Open.

[Sdlrodeo]

21 minutes ago, RJH said:

Score stands as originally shot.   Just like if your equipment is out of whack and you get away with it, you don't get retroactively bumped to open.  Had the RO caught it then it would be a bump to open.  On the second stage the shooter should have been bumped to open, but i am assuming it was a new shooter since he was making a basic mistake and I have no issue with the RO correcting the issue (even though it should be a bump to open) and allowing the shooter to continue in production. Still assuming it was a new shooter i would consider it allowable coaching and not stress over it

 

Was it a level one match? Was the guy a VERY new shooter?

 

if the answer to these questions was yes, then I agree with how it went down. 

 

While not ‘to The letter of rule’ it is within the spirit of the game (coaching allowed at level 1). A stiff warning that the shooter needs to familiarize themselves with the rules lest yee be bumped next time would be in order. 

 

Then again a bump to open isn’t the end of the world and at least they’d get to shoot the rest of the match. Hard lesson but they wouldn’t do it again. Or they might just say screw it and not come back. 

 

 

 

 

[Sarge]

19 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

 

Was it a level one match? Was the guy a VERY new shooter?

 

if the answer to these questions was yes, then I agree with how it went down. 

 

While not ‘to The letter of rule’ it is within the spirit of the game (coaching allowed at level 1). A stiff warning that the shooter needs to familiarize themselves with the rules lest yee be bumped next time would be in order. 

 

Then again a bump to open isn’t the end of the world and at least they’d get to shoot the rest of the match. Hard lesson but they wouldn’t do it again. Or they might just say screw it and not come back. 

 

 

 

 

So, you aren’t sure? Sounds like you are ok either way so why not go by the rules?

[Sarge]

41 minutes ago, bret said:

 

 

If the r.o. sees a shooter put a mag in but doesn't rack the slide, should the r.o. tell the shooter to rack the slide?

Oh nooo!!! Not that scenario again. That got beat to death a few months ago and several ill informed folks at ALL levels think we should spoon feed shooters 

[Bench]

2 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

The authorized ready condition for guns with hammers in production is "hammer down" (D4 #1)

D4, Special Conditions, #1.

[Sdlrodeo]

46 minutes ago, Sarge said:

So, you aren’t sure? Sounds like you are ok either way so why not go by the rules?

 

If this is a first club match for someone I’d have played it out like they did. The guy shot the stage again as it was supposed to have been shot and he learned from it. No harm, no foul. All the competitors ended up winning the same amount of prize money they would’ve won anyway. 

 

While not wrong, I dont see hammering someone with the rule book on their first outing as productive. Educating them, yes as I’d rather encourage them to do better next time. We all start somewhere and learn from it. 

 

Have you ever gotten off a speeding ticket with a warning? 

 

 

 

 

[Sdlrodeo]

46 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Oh nooo!!! Not that scenario again. That got beat to death a few months ago and several ill informed folks at ALL levels think we should spoon feed shooters 

 

I got plenty of help at level 1 matches when I was starting out. Was a welcoming atmosphere. Nice and fun. 

 

After several years of shooting, I ‘made ready’ and forgot to put in a mag at a Sectional the first time I shot LTD. I was thinking more about not having to reload and stage planning and if my gun would run. Dumb move. Didn’t get a hint. Worked through it. 

[jcc7x7]

2 hours ago, bret said:

Wrong, once he started the stage in that condition he is bumped to open.

 

If he would have realized before the beep it was not correct, he could have fixed it.

Agree

But

RO never saw or noticed that. And scored him as production. So shooter gets the gift on that stage.

[bret]

16 minutes ago, jcc7x7 said:

Agree

But

RO never saw or noticed that. And scored him as production. So shooter gets the gift on that stage.

True, but the RM made him reshoot the stage.

 

The range officers and RM need to learn and follow the rules.

[HCH]

Open

[broadside72]

3 hours ago, robchavous said:

 

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division

 

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.

 

Once "Make Ready" has been issued everything that follows is during the course of fire.  So if you holster the gun after getting that command in start condition not valid for your division you are bumped to Open.

 

What if the shooter catches it themselves and corrects before the start signal? Its not the same safety type of infraction like hammer back without the safety, so can they self-rectify to avoid the bump? There is no advantage to the shooter to correct it, but it was "During the COF" since after Make Ready. 
 

[robchavous]

16 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

What if the shooter catches it themselves and corrects before the start signal? Its not the same safety type of infraction like hammer back without the safety, so can they self-rectify to avoid the bump? There is no advantage to the shooter to correct it, but it was "During the COF" since after Make Ready. 
 

 

Realizing before the start signal is still too late as you are per the rules in the course of fire at that point and have already broken the rule.  

 

 

[bret]

15 minutes ago, robchavous said:

 

Realizing before the start signal is still too late as you are per the rules in the course of fire at that point and have already broken the rule.  

 

 

You have not started shooting yet, so if you correct it, before the timer goes off, what rule have you violated that would put you in open?

 

Correcting it before the timer going off and then a bump to Open, I would love to file a 3rd party arbitration on that.

[bret]

44 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

What if the shooter catches it themselves and corrects before the start signal? Its not the same safety type of infraction like hammer back without the safety, so can they self-rectify to avoid the bump? There is no advantage to the shooter to correct it, but it was "During the COF" since after Make Ready. 
 

If the shooter corrects it, nothing happens since he did not start with the hammer back safety on.

 

No rules were violated.