Production gun wrong start position

[RIKott]

On 10/14/2019 at 10:21 AM, Sdlrodeo said:

 

If this is a first club match for someone I’d have played it out like they did. The guy shot the stage again as it was supposed to have been shot and he learned from it. No harm, no foul. All the competitors ended up winning the same amount of prize money they would’ve won anyway. 

 

While not wrong, I dont see hammering someone with the rule book on their first outing as productive. Educating them, yes as I’d rather encourage them to do better next time. We all start somewhere and learn from it. 

 

Have you ever gotten off a speeding ticket with a warning? 

 

 

 

 

i remember being that FIRST club match i was a nervous wreck. my whole goal was not get DQed. 

[bret]

7 hours ago, UFO said:

I would say this may address that:

 

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire.

Ready Condition of a gun is not the start position. 

[waktasz]

On 10/14/2019 at 6:27 PM, bret said:

I have holstered my production gun hammer down and the holster pushed the slide back enough to put the hammer on half cock, i then lower the hammer all the way down and re holster, is this a bump to open?

 

No, it's a DQ 

[bret]

3 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

No, it's a DQ 

What rule? 

 

Hammer was not cocked.

[waktasz]

8.5.2 If a competitor holsters a loaded firearm or places a PCC on a stable surface 
at any time during a course of fire, it must be placed in the applicable ready 
conditions (see Section 8.1).  Violations will be subject to match 
disqualification (see Rule 10.5.11). 

8.5.2.2 For double action self-loaders and revolvers the hammer must be 
down, or, if present, the safety applied if the hammer is cocked. 

 

Applicable ready condition:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-
cocked. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by waktasz

[Sdlrodeo]

19 minutes ago, waktasz said:

8.5.2 If a competitor holsters a loaded firearm or places a PCC on a stable surface 
at any time during a course of fire, it must be placed in the applicable ready 
conditions (see Section 8.1).  Violations will be subject to match 
disqualification (see Rule 10.5.11). 

8.5.2.2 For double action self-loaders and revolvers the hammer must be 
down, or, if present, the safety applied if the hammer is cocked. 

 

Applicable ready condition:

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-
cocked. 

 

8.5.2.2 ...”OR, if present, the safety applied IF the hammer is cocked. 

 

More to the OPs case where he holstered a production weapon cocked and locked after Make ready but before start signal. That makes it more difficult to call it a bump to open. One rule indicates it is permitted. One rule says it’s a bump because it happened during the COF (after make ready). 

 

As as far as having the holster bump the hammer to the half cock when holstering, I’d say it is half cocked, not cocked so another grey area if we’re reviewing the rules strictly verbatim. 

[RJH]

I will also never "see" someone bump their gun to halfcock, then fix it. In other words I am not dqing someone for accidentally bumping their gun to half cock

[bret]

At half cock, it isn't cocked. 

 

 

[regor]

Special Condition #1 in the Appendix D for Prod/CO states:

Quote

Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division.

 

And there is no definition in the appendix that defines cocked as "not down", so I see this as being the same as manually decocking a safety model DA/SA to half cocked and holstering; it would be inconsistent for the situation in discussion to be a DQ and not a bump to open. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

In the process of Holstering a production gun the holster cocks the hammer. 
Wouldn’t you Now have a holstered gun with the hammer is back and the safety off ?

 

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

In the process of Holstering a production gun the holster cocks the hammer. 
Wouldn’t you Now have a holstered gun with the hammer is back and the safety off ?

 

 

I’ve never seen a holster do this, but if it somehow happens while I’m ROing, I’m going to treat it exactly the same way I would any other gun that is holstered in an unsafe condition (10.5.11). As part of that, I would have to call the RM over. While I have him there, I would explain that I saw the holster cause the issue and that he should consider not allowing the shooter to use that holster again until he can demonstrate that the problem has been corrected (per 5.2.6). 

[waktasz]

If you put the muzzle on the edge of the holster and push down, you can do it with any holder

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

If you put the muzzle on the edge of the holster and push down, you can do it with any holder

 

Thats fair, and I would probably not worry about the holster if I could tell that was what happened. I’m thinking more of a weird scenario where something inside the holster somehow grabs the slide and causes it to happen. 

[regor]

6 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

In the process of Holstering a production gun the holster cocks the hammer. 
Wouldn’t you Now have a holstered gun with the hammer is back and the safety off ?

 

 

If it cocks the hammer all the way, yes, but the question here is about half cock. 

[robchavous]

I've seen it happen when someone was using a holster not specifically for their gun. I think it was a Lim Pro in a Stock II holster. He was able to push down on it just enough to go to half cock.

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[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

I would say any cocked is cocked .

could be wrong but it seems obvious to me. 

[belus]

On 10/14/2019 at 7:38 AM, RJH said:

Score stands as originally shot.   Just like if your equipment is out of whack and you get away with it, you don't get retroactively bumped to open.  Had the RO caught it then it would be a bump to open.  On the second stage the shooter should have been bumped to open, but i am assuming it was a new shooter since he was making a basic mistake and I have no issue with the RO correcting the issue (even though it should be a bump to open) and allowing the shooter to continue in production. Still assuming it was a new shooter i would consider it allowable coaching and not stress over it

 

I think this is totally reasonable.

 

Seems like it was a new shooter based on their comment to RO#2. RO#1 missed the call and the opportunity to coach (preferred) or bump them to open per the rules. If I was RM I wouldn't stress about the reshoot and just let the score stand. It's a teachable moment to RO#1 to pay attention to the guy with a loaded gun.

[broadside72]

58 minutes ago, belus said:

 

I think this is totally reasonable.

 

Seems like it was a new shooter based on their comment to RO#2. RO#1 missed the call and the opportunity to coach (preferred) or bump them to open per the rules. If I was RM I wouldn't stress about the reshoot and just let the score stand. It's a teachable moment to RO#1 to pay attention to the guy with a loaded gun.

 

not a new shooter by any means, just an new to production shooter.

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

I would say any cocked is cocked .

could be wrong but it seems obvious to me. 

 

wait until you get a little older. You will realize that anything less than fully cocked is pretty much uncocked as far as mrs superkaratemonkeyfighter is concerned.

[Matt1]

Bump to limited

That’s not a rule


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[Matt1]

Score stands as originally shot.   Just like if your equipment is out of whack and you get away with it, you don't get retroactively bumped to open.  Had the RO caught it then it would be a bump to open.  On the second stage the shooter should have been bumped to open, but i am assuming it was a new shooter since he was making a basic mistake and I have no issue with the RO correcting the issue (even though it should be a bump to open) and allowing the shooter to continue in production. Still assuming it was a new shooter i would consider it allowable coaching and not stress over it

Wrong. If an RO catches you with incorrect equipment for your division at the you’ve shot a stage they don’t have to warn you. They can just bump you to Open.


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[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

[DKorn]

14 hours ago, Matt1 said:

 

Wrong. If an RO catches you with incorrect equipment for your division at the you’ve shot a stage they don’t have to warn you. They can just bump you to Open.


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Only if they know you’ve actually shot a stage with it out of compliance, like if they run you on a stage and then notice that your holster is too far forward for Production. If you come to them from another stage and it’s too far forward, they’re supposed to make you fix it but CANNOT bump you to Open because they can’t prove that it was out of compliance during a stage. 

[broadside72]

2 hours ago, DKorn said:

Only if they know you’ve actually shot a stage with it out of compliance, like if they run you on a stage and then notice that your holster is too far forward for Production. If you come to them from another stage and it’s too far forward, they’re supposed to make you fix it but CANNOT bump you to Open because they can’t prove that it was out of compliance during a stage. 

 

unless it is a firearm related bump because competitor is solely responsible for all firearm handling per 8.1. 

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

 

unless it is a firearm related bump because competitor is solely responsible for all firearm handling per 8.1. 

True. If you come to your 2nd stage with a firearm configuration illegal for your division, then you’ll get bumped unless you can convince them that you haven’t used it on a stage yet.