Production gun wrong start position

[bret]

1 minute ago, B_RAD said:

Well,.... After I said that I started thinking more about it.and could see how he's get bumped to open or even a reshoot. My guess would be, it'd all depend on how well the RM knew the rules. I could see all several different outcomes based on who was running the show.  

 

Though, I don't know that, from memory, I agree that the score can be changed after the it's been approved. I'm wrong a lot so,.....maybe I'm wrong here too?

9.7.4

[broadside72]

17 minutes ago, bret said:

You barney with a 170 in any division but Open, welcome to open.

 

The rule about magazine capacity in production says no more than 10 rounds in any magazine after the start signal. 

 

But magazine max lengths apply during the cof. 

 

The cof starts at make ready.

 

If you can make 33 rounds fit in a 141.25mm mag then more power to you. I assumed the question was about capacity not length.

[RJH]

I think 8.3.1 would allow you to holster a gun cocked and locked while making ready without penalty.  As an RO using common sense I would allow a person to barney with whatever mag they wanted

[broadside72]

IMO, anything not safety related should be fair game prior to the start signal and once the start signal happens, then division rules should be strictly enforced. But that may not always be what the rule book says.

[B_RAD]

5 minutes ago, bret said:

9.7.4

Awesome. Thank you for the correction. 

 

 

So, sounds like a bump to open. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by B_RAD

[RJH]

1 minute ago, broadside72 said:

 

If you can make 33 rounds fit in a 141.25mm mag then more power to you. I assumed the question was about capacity not length.

If you were talking about my question it was specifically about length.  As in a 170 is definitely illegal, but if only used to barney before the start signal, it really don't matter and bumping to someone to open for it is kinda dumb

[RJH]

1 minute ago, broadside72 said:

IMO, anything not safety related should be fair game prior to the start signal and once the start signal happens, then division rules should be strictly enforced. But that may not always be what the rule book says.

This makes too much sense and is not allowed in the rules section

[bret]

RM talked to shooter, the shooter says yes I started the stage hammer back, safety on.

 

There is no basis for reshoot. 

 

Shoukd be bumped to open but the r.o. didn't catch it, so if treated like other equipment violations, the stage stands as shot.

 

The next r.o. that realized what the shooter did, cocked and locked in production should go to the are you ready, standby then after the stage has been shot and scored called the RM and let him know about the improper ready condition in production and the shooter would go to open. 

 

It is a level 1 match, new shooter I assume so this is a good teaching moment, bump the guy to open and show him that even at level 1 matches and new shooters the rules apply, it isn't being a dick enforcing the rules.

 

This is how bad habits get built, in shooters and range officers, by ignoring or making up rules. 

[B_RAD]

5 hours ago, bret said:

Second RO screwed up, what rule after make ready says the r.o. is to tell the shooter their gun is not in the correct ready condition for production? 

 

If the r.o. sees a shooter put a mag in but doesn't rack the slide, should the r.o. tell the shooter to rack the slide?

Even at nats!   Ask me how I know?

[bret]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

If you were talking about my question it was specifically about length.  As in a 170 is definitely illegal, but if only used to barney before the start signal, it really don't matter and bumping to someone to open for it is kinda dumb

But this has happened to production shooters at nationals,  use too long of a barney mag, get bumped to open.

 

Stupid rule but when they rewrote the rule book it could have been changed but it wasn't. 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, bret said:

But this has happened to production shooters at nationals,  use too long of a barney mag, get bumped to open.

 

Stupid rule but when they rewrote the rule book it could have been changed but it wasn't. 

 

Oh well, I won't bump anyone to open for it, or for holstering their production gun cocked and locked while making ready.  I might tell them that if they go to nationals to buy another mag to barney out of though

[bret]

6 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

IMO, anything not safety related should be fair game prior to the start signal and once the start signal happens, then division rules should be strictly enforced. But that may not always be what the rule book says.

I agree but the issue is, range officers are to apply the rules fairly to everyone,  if you have range officers and RMs making up their own rules or ignoring rules they think are stupid then the match is not fair to everyone shooting it.

 

How hard is it to understand you start hammer down in production?

 

If you can't figure it out, a bump to open should fix it.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, bret said:

I agree but the issue is, range officers are to apply the rules fairly to everyone,  if you have range officers and RMs making up their own rules or ignoring rules they think are stupid then the match is not fair to everyone shooting it.

 

How hard is it to understand you start hammer down in production?

 

If you can't figure it out, a bump to open should fix it.

 

 

Or if they are new you could probably just tell them, and avoid all the drama....

[broadside72]

20 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Okay. So we have a Production shooter with a Shadow 2 who cannot legally own fullcap mags because he lives in Maryland. 
 

Are you saying that if this man does the following after Make Ready:

 

Chambers a round. 
Ejects mag.

Holsters with hammer back & on safe.

Places that mag in a pouch.

Draws a new mag.

Draws handgun.

Inserts full mag.

Decocks the gun and holsters.

Assumes start position.

...then he should be bumped to Open in any way shape or form?

 

If so, you are reading things into the rules that are not actually there. And no one agrees with you.

Hopefully I’m misunderstanding you.  

 

 

D4 SC #1 "When in the ready conditions as specified under 8.1, a gun with an external hammer must be hammer down. A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present."

The ready condition in the WSB is "loaded and holstered". If you load the gun and holster it even just to barney up, it is the ready condition (loaded and holstered), even if it is before the start signal. So technically per D4 SC #1, you are violating a division's equipment rules. 

 

I fully understand that this is not the intent of the rule but as it is written its a bump. Hell even following that logic, holstering after a the first shot has been fired with hammer back safety on is also a bump. That is all i am saying and why I previously suggested amending the language.

[bret]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Oh well, I won't bump anyone to open for it, or for holstering their production gun cocked and locked while making ready.  I might tell them that if they go to nationals to buy another mag to barney out of though

Had a shooter go to her first level II match, in the shoot house, broke 180 bad, went about 270.

 

She was DQd, this is a what some people on her squad said

 

 "but she does it all the time and never DQ'd before"

 

Since she was never DQd at the level 1 matches she was taught that it was ok to break the rules, so when she went to a level II, she got DQd.

 

Would have been better to teach her at the level 1 matches instead of ignoring it, she was warned about it but obviously it never corrected it.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by bret

[bret]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Or if they are new you could probably just tell them, and avoid all the drama....

Warnings don't typically correct bad behavior. 

[RJH]

Just now, bret said:

Had a shooter go to her first level II match, in the shoot house, broke 180 bad, went about 270.

 

She was DQd, this is a what some people on her squad said

 

 "but she does it all the time and never DQ'd before"

 

Since she was never DQd at the level 1 matches she was taught that it was ok to break the rules, so when she went to a level II, she got DQd.

 

Would have been better to teach her at the level 1 matches instead of ignoring it.

 

 

 

1 safety is different

 

2 that is why i said i would inform them

 

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, bret said:

Warnings don't typically correct bad behavior. 

 

I have instructed a ton of noobs over the years and never had an issue with someone repeatedly trying to break a rule that they were originally ignorant of.  My experience is after you point  out something like being discussed they correct it and move on, no drama needed

Edited October 14, 2019 by RJH

[bret]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

1 safety is different

 

2 that is why i said i would inform them

 

If warning people on safety issues doesn't teach them to be safe, why would warning them about equipment violations be any different? 

 

Lots of improper equipment at local matches, when pointed out, they say but all I shoot are club matches.

 

Rules, all of them apply at all level of USPSA matches, if not, just run outlaw matches.

[bret]

Just now, RJH said:

 

I have instructed a ton of noobs over the years and never had an issue with someone repeated trying to break a rule that they were originally ignorant of.  My experience is after you point it out something like being discussed they correct it and move on, no drama needed

Not been my experience. 

[RJH]

Just now, bret said:

Not been my experience. 

Maybe we instruct differently

[RJH]

1 minute ago, bret said:

If warning people on safety issues doesn't teach them to be safe, why would warning them about equipment violations be any different? 

 

Lots of improper equipment at local matches, when pointed out, they say but all I shoot are club matches.

 

Rules, all of them apply at all level of USPSA matches, if not, just run outlaw matches.

 

Because one is dangerous and one is odds and ends that people come up with

[bret]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Because one is dangerous and one is odds and ends that people come up with

If a warning on a safety issue doesn't correct it, what makes you think a warning on equipment or ready condition would be any different? 

 

Having different sets of rules for different levels of matches teaches bad behavior to not just shooters but range officers as well.

 

Where do you think a cro at Nationals got the idea that is was ok to yell muzzle after the shooters (not just one but multiple shooters) broke 180 and not just a little bit, came from?

 

It's from pulling that crap at other matches.

[RJH]

13 minutes ago, bret said:

If a warning on a safety issue doesn't correct it, what makes you think a warning on equipment or ready condition would be any different? 

 

Having different sets of rules for different levels of matches teaches bad behavior to not just shooters but range officers as well.

 

Where do you think a cro at Nationals got the idea that is was ok to yell muzzle after the shooters (not just one but multiple shooters) broke 180 and not just a little bit, came from?

 

It's from pulling that crap at other matches.

You can have a warning on safety, things like saying muzzle are perfectly okay. And to say that all rule violations have to be enforced the same is silly, safety violations are punished with a DQ, equipment violations are punished with a bump to open. If somebody is a noob, there's no reason to bump them to open when you can simply inform them. Unless you happen to like drama, I however I have tired of it and if I can get the same results without having any I'm okay with that

Edited October 14, 2019 by RJH

[RJH]

Also I have personally seen many times when a warning on equipment has corrected the situation. The difference lies in the fact that safety DQ's are generally Made In the Heat of the Moment, and Equipment bumps can be corrected readily before a start of of a course of Fire