HP38 and 9mm

[RandyBaker]

I load all my 9mm with HP38. This with mostly 147 grain low power factor stuff (130ish PF) I shoot mostly in pistols but have just recently bought a PCC. I see most people don’t run the HP38. What advantages are there to running a different powder. I bought HP38 because it was around the cheapest , seems to meter well, and isn’t dirty but have nothing to compare it to. 

[George16]

There’s nothing wrong with HP38/Win231. There’s just better powders than HP38/Win231 out there. I’m using Sport Pistol for my pistol and PCC loads. It’s cleaner and cheaper compared to Win 231(same s HP38) that I used to use.

[RandyBaker]

6 hours ago, George16 said:

There’s nothing wrong with HP38/Win231. There’s just better powders than HP38/Win231 out there. I’m using Sport Pistol for my pistol and PCC loads. It’s cleaner and cheaper compared to Win 231(same s HP38) that I used to use.

Thanks for the reply ,Are the main differences going to be the price and cleanliness? I wasn’t sure if the burn rate or ? Had some kind of burnt rate / burnt recoil advantage.

[Matt1911]

I've used HP-38 for at least 10 years and don't have any issues with it so I'll continue to use it. 

Thanks for the reminder on powder, I'm down to about 3lbs now so it's time to stock up again.  

[George16]

1 hour ago, RandyBaker said:

Thanks for the reply ,Are the main differences going to be the price and cleanliness? I wasn’t sure if the burn rate or ? Had some kind of burnt rate / burnt recoil advantage.

Sport pistol is a faster powder compared to Win231/HP38. I load 4.0-4.1 Gr of  Sport Pistol on 124 Gr PD JHP for my MPX, X5 and Shadow 2. Pf is about 128-132 on the shadow 2 and x5 while it’s around 140-141 on the MPX.

 

When I did testing with 147 Gr RMR truncated flat points, I was loading them with 3.3-3,4 Gr of  Sport pistol. Pf was around 130-135 on the MPX and 125-128 on the shadow 2 and X5.

 

I call sport pistol the poor mans N320  

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: One of the cheaper powders is Clean Shot. I have been using it in my PCC and Carry Optics pistol with 124's. Two different loads. pistol is 3.9 grains and PCC is 3.1 grains in a AR-9 style. It burns clean and is softer than Tite Group and just as accurate. Thanks, Eric

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've been shooting HP38 / WW231 for 40 years now in my 9mm

and I used the same powder in my .45 for years.

 

Can't think of anything that's wrong with it, but I have never tried

these other powders everyone is talking about.

[hceuterpe]

In my experience, HP-38 is quite dirty and sooty for 9mm in the 130PF range, even with jacketed bullets.  It clears up considerably when I'm loading around max (I do load these deliberately for the other non race guns). And they were clean in .40 @170PF. Except their velocities were wildly inconsistent (like almost 100FPS ES).  I use N320 for both these with way better results all around.

 

It's cheap though, and versatile (albeit maybe not ideal) in a bunch of calibers.

[4n2t0]

If it's working and the price is right then there is no reason to change.

[RandyBaker]

Thank you for all the input. Based off this discussion , there may be some cleanliness advantages to switch from HP38 and maybe consistency which I’ll need to check., but I think I’m going stick for HP38 for now. Which is good because I bought 8lbs and was second guessing myself. 

[CzViper]

I've used HP38/231 to load 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 38 special. It's versatile, accurate enough, and great all round powder that meters well for me. Not as clean as others but has its benefits. Has a really good recoil feel also. Still my go to for 9mm.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[jpm2953]

I used HP38 exclusively for years in my 9mm pistols. Never thought it was dirty or sooty. Never had any issues at all. 

I recently tried sport pistol since it’s all the rage now days and I honestly can’t tell any difference. My pistol looks as dirty as it always has. Brass I pick up still looks the same it always has. 

 

Saying all that to say this, not sure it matters much. Nothing wrong with HP38

[Khaot1c]

I used HP38 quite a bit in my 40S&W "XL" major loads and my practice 9mm. I have since switched to Sport Pistol for many of the reasons mentioned here.

It's still very economical, it burns cleaner, and the gun stays noticeably cooler after strings of fire.

Some folks may appreciate the higher case volume - making powder drops much easier to seem

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[LiveLife]

On 8/15/2019 at 8:23 PM, RandyBaker said:

recently bought a PCC. I see most people don’t run the HP38. What advantages are there to running a different powder.

 

IMHO, what I found with blow back action carbine testing that holds case mouth against the chamber just by recoil spring tension and combined weight of the bolt/buffer is that faster burn rate powder than W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol seem to burn powder granules more efficiently in the case before bolt/buffer moves back and start to leak gas from gap between case mouth and chamber (Hence why spent brass are often very sooty).

 

So when slower burning powders (BE-86, etc.) did not produce optimal accuracy, I started testing with faster and faster burning powders.

 

And for longer range 50-100 yards accuracy, lighter and lighter bullets to reduce bullet drop/vertical stringing.  Reducing bullet weight from 124 gr to 115 gr to 100 gr RN bullet with 5.5 gr of W231/HP-38 (Hodgdon max load) produced around 2" 10 shot group at 50 yards (This group was comparably smaller than slower powder loads). And when I tested faster burning powders like Titegroup, Bullseye, Promo etc., Promo loads kept producing smaller groups than other faster powders (Yeah, I am beginning to believe Promo/Red Dot may be faster burning than Bullseye depending on bullet/seating depth/powder charge range) to the point of around 1.5" 10 shot group at 50 yards (smaller than slower burning W231/HP-38).

 

50 yard 10 shot groups with RMR 100 gr HM RN and W231/HP-38 and Promo (Thick plated bullet no longer in production now replaced with 95 gr FMJ and yes, mixed range brass).  My groups are on par with what Guns & Ammo produced with their JR carbine at 50 yards (1.2"-1.7" shot groups).

 

 

Promo load produced less muzzle velocity variance than HP-38 load and smaller 100 yard group. (1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps)

 

 

When I pondered why Promo carbine loads were producing smaller groups as I do not get smaller groups with Promo loads when shooting them out of pistols, light bulbs went off:

Locked breech pistol (1911, Glocks, etc.) compared to blow back (Makarov, etc.) holds case mouth against the chamber for quicker pressure build which ensures more efficient powder burn (even for slower burning powders).  But blow back action carbines will produce comparably more efficient powder burn with faster burning powders to hold case mouth against the chamber longer, which in turn produce more consistent muzzle velocities (for lower SD) and less bullet drop/scatter on target (vertical stringing)

And large flake Promo easily produce 100% case fill loads (Depending on OAL) compared to other dense powders that become "powder forward" when the round is chambered and primer flash must jump the air gap to ignite powder granules compared to Promo load where powder granules are in contact with primer flash.  So when applicable, I will use shorter OAL that will ensure 100% case fill.

 

 

Another thing to consider if you are using AR PCC is the combined bolt/buffer weight for longest "in battery/dwell" time.  With carbine recoil spring, I found 19-22 oz combined weight of buffer and bolt produces more comfortable felt recoil. 16-18 oz combined weight produces harsher felt recoil.  And consider heavier buffer weight for longer in battery/dwell time to allow powder to burn longer to build chamber pressures (and this also decrease amount of soot on the case).

 

PSA bolt 14.7 oz + PSA buffer 5.3 oz = 20 oz combined weight and produces comfortable felt recoil with various 9mm loads. For longest "in battery" time for more consistent chamber pressures, use heaviest buffer that will reliably cycle the bolt. With 20 oz combined weight, my PCCs will cycle even lighter target loads (115 gr RMR FMJ with 4.6 gr W231/HP-38 or 4.0-4.2 gr Red Dot/Promo).

 

For reference:

 

- H1 buffer weighs 3.8 oz
- H2 buffer weighs 4.6 oz
- H3 buffer weighs 5.4 oz

 

 

BTW, W231/HP-38 is temperature sensitive and Promo is reverse temperature sensitive.

 

Here are chrono number difference between 56F and 79F:

• 115 gr RMR HM RN 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.130": 1275-1263-1253-1290-1248 fps (56 F - JR carbine)
• 115 gr RMR HM RN 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.130": 1303-1289-1298-1311-1323 fps (79 F - JR carbine)

 

• 100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo @ 1.050": 1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps (58 F - JR carbine)
• 100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo @ 1.050": 1458-1450-1445-1442-1448 fps (71 F - JR carbine)

 

Last edited: Saturday at 5:32 P

Edited August 24, 2019 by kks
Added chrono data for reverse temperature sensitive Promo

[Woodruff]

On 8/15/2019 at 10:23 PM, RandyBaker said:

I load all my 9mm with HP38. This with mostly 147 grain low power factor stuff (130ish PF) I shoot mostly in pistols but have just recently bought a PCC. I see most people don’t run the HP38. What advantages are there to running a different powder. I bought HP38 because it was around the cheapest , seems to meter well, and isn’t dirty but have nothing to compare it to. 

Hello this is Bob what grains are you using?  I know old thread I just loaded up 2000 at 3.7 just wonder if I am going to make it.

[ysrracer]

I'm using 4.2 of 231 behind a 124gr RMR jacketed bullet in pistol, and 3.8 in my PCC.

 

Same power factor.

[Farmer]

12 hours ago, Woodruff said:

Hello this is Bob what grains are you using?  I know old thread I just loaded up 2000 at 3.7 just wonder if I am going to make it.

Best to test a few before committing to many. 

[85win]

Nothing wrong with HP-38, it is one of the most accurate powders with my 147’s

[pbcaster45]

Here's a load I like to use in my Stacatto XL.

 

Bullet:  X-Treme 115 gr. RN (.355)
Powder:  Winchester 231 4.4 grs.
Primer:  Federal 100
Case:  Winchester
OAL:  1.150
Avg. Vel.: 1109 fps  
ES: 21 fps 
SD:  7 
PF:  127
Recoil Spring:  Wilson Combat 8 lb.