Reshoot after conclusive score?

[Smithcity]

I'll try to make it short:

 

Level 2 match, shooter A finishes the stage, score keeper records all the hits and time, RO and shooter approve of the score. shooter B in the same division shoots not a clean run but not a disaster, his time is 2.25x of shooter A. Calls B.S. on his time after knowing what shooter A's time was. RO goes through the timer and has all the hits recorded. They go back and look at shooter A's time compared to the 50% of competitors that have shot the stage, and shooter A's time is twice as fast as the top GMs at the match. It is concluded that the shot timer did not pick up several of his shots and Shooter A is made to reshoot. Later, review of video shows that shooter A indeed shot the stage in about twice the recorded time, regardless, video is irrelevant for contesting a score.

 

There were no rules given for the mandatory reshoot. I was under the impression that after a score is considered conclusive after affirmation by both the competitor and RO in an uncontested manner, the score is definitive per 9.7.4. Maybe there is some interpretation between 9.7.4, 9.10.1, and 9.10.2 to justify a mandatory reshoot but I would have thought arbitration by shooter B would have been necessary to initiate a review after the score was deemed definitive, forcing a review by the arbitration board where they may or may not have decided the time was unrealistic.

 

Ultimately this is a case of bad ROing. The RO's should have realized after ROing the same stage all day that the time was suspect and should have checked for shots, but they didn't.

 

What would the rules / proper procedure been in this case to justify a reshoot?

[oddjob]

tag

[NickBlasta]

You're correct, there's no way to simply instruct the competitor that they must do a reshoot once the score sheet is signed by both parties. You (as the RM) can /ask/ them to reshoot the COF with the suspect time as justification, but if they do not agree, the score stands.

[Smithcity]

9 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

You're correct, there's no way to simply instruct the competitor that they must do a reshoot once the score sheet is signed by both parties. You (as the RM) can /ask/ them to reshoot the COF with the suspect time as justification, but if they do not agree, the score stands.

Can the score be challenged by another shooter via arbitration?

[NickBlasta]

32 minutes ago, Smithcity said:

Can the score be challenged by another shooter via arbitration?

 

Yes. 11.7.1. There is an hour statute of limitations though.

[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

You're correct, there's no way to simply instruct the competitor that they must do a reshoot once the score sheet is signed by both parties. You (as the RM) can /ask/ them to reshoot the COF with the suspect time as justification, but if they do not agree, the score stands.

 

oddly enough, this actually happened at production nationals a couple years ago. A famous pro shooter refused to reshoot and accepted a time that he KNEW was incorrect. IIRC, it was later proven incorrect using his own video app.

 

OTOH, the person who was winning the stage at the time realized his time was wrong, and since he was not a cheater, asked for a reshoot. When it happened to me at a section match, I realized the time was wrong, and I am not a cheater, so I asked for a reshoot.

[IHAVEGAS]

PCC ?

[pskys2]

And video is not allowed to review a run either.  So on what basis would a fellow competitor's arbitration be based on?

Other than to try to shame someone into asking for a re-run.

If it happened to more than one shooter and was caught before RO/Competitors signatures, seems like the proper thing is to either throw out the COF or have everyone re-shoot it as the originals are not verifiably correct.

If it's a 1x thing, stuff happens.

[IHAVEGAS]

 

13 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 there's no way to simply instruct the competitor that they must do a reshoot once the score sheet is signed by both parties.

 

Is that written somewhere? I've participated in whole squad reshoots at a level 2 (twice) where there was a conflict in interpretation of stage procedure and the head cheese made us all reshoot after we all had that stages scoresheet signed by both parties.

 

I don't think this thread is really a thing, I think 9.10.1 says you reshoot. You could say the timing device was not faulty if held differently or if it weren't a mouse fart gun or something but it was faulty under the circumstances. 

[NickBlasta]

50 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

Is that written somewhere? I've participated in whole squad reshoots at a level 2 (twice) where there was a conflict in interpretation of stage procedure and the head cheese made us all reshoot after we all had that stages scoresheet signed by both parties.

 

I don't think this thread is really a thing, I think 9.10.1 says you reshoot. You could say the timing device was not faulty if held differently or if it weren't a mouse fart gun or something but it was faulty under the circumstances. 

 

Ordering reshoots is permissible for modifications to the stage structure or procedure, so for example if there was a port causing the timer to miss shots (as at the famous case in CO nats) and the port was removed, the affected competitors would reshoot. This is different from merely ordering someone to reshoot because you think their time is wrong.

 

But yes, 9.7.4 is the rule. I don't really think you can argue the timer is faulty in this instance, a RO not using it correctly is not the fault of the timer.

[NickBlasta]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

And video is not allowed to review a run either.  So on what basis would a fellow competitor's arbitration be based on?

Other than to try to shame someone into asking for a re-run.

If it happened to more than one shooter and was caught before RO/Competitors signatures, seems like the proper thing is to either throw out the COF or have everyone re-shoot it as the originals are not verifiably correct.

If it's a 1x thing, stuff happens.

 

9.10.2. They could base it off whatever else they want. Referencing other scores, the ability level of the competitor, whatever. It just must be their opinion that the time is unrealistic.

[IHAVEGAS]

47 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Ordering reshoots is permissible for modifications to the stage structure or procedure, so for example if there was a port causing the timer to miss shots (as at the famous case in CO nats) and the port was removed, the affected competitors would reshoot. This is different from merely ordering someone to reshoot because you think their time is wrong.

 

But yes, 9.7.4 is the rule. I don't really think you can argue the timer is faulty in this instance, a RO not using it correctly is not the fault of the timer.

 

This is why bottom of the food chain r.o.'s like me have radios. When I have been involved in stuff like this at matches it seems like the big cheese always uses his sense of what is fair and right unless the rule book clearly dictates otherwise. To me fair and right and intent (good time or reshoot) is clear and a debate over under what conditions the timer must be used for it not to fail, and what "faulty" really means in the case of a man-machine interaction is sort of just an Internet forum thing. 

 

But I'd just call on the radio, and sometimes there are surprises. 

[Smithcity]

I understand that 11.7.1 allows an appeal by a "third party", however, this is a unique case where the score is accepted and definitive. 9.7.4 is the only rule I can find that talks about changing a definitive score. The only argument I could see to invoke the reasons given in 9.7.4 is "due to an arbitration decision", but then it goes on to say that changes are defined as a modification to the score sheet after both parties have signed off on the score sheet. 

 

Shooter A could say, "I don't care if the time looks ridiculous, we all agreed that the score was correct and it has been accepted". 9.7.4 doesn't leave room for a re-shoot, and I agree, the timer wasn't defective, it was the RO that was defective (held the timer poorly, didn't keep up with the shooter, didn't apply thought to the recorded time, and or "PCC"). Perhaps a combination of 11.7.1 (arbitration by a 3rd party) and 9.7.4 (arbitration being allowed to address a definitive score), and 9.10.2 (arbitration committee decides time is unrealistic = reshoot). So the process should potentially be:

1. Shooter B requests arbitration to review Shooter A's time under 9.7.4 and 11.7.1, pays his $100

2. Arbitration committee reviews the time, decides it is unrealistic under 9.10.2 and issues a reshoot

 

If this is the process, if Shooter B doesn't request arbitration and pay $100, then the ridiculous score stands?

 

I don't see grounds in the rule book for a MD to come by, review the definitive time and say, "Yeah go reshoot that, the time looks ridiculous to me" (which is what took place).

[MikeBurgess]

45 minutes ago, Smithcity said:

I understand that 11.7.1 allows an appeal by a "third party", however, this is a unique case where the score is accepted and definitive. 9.7.4 is the only rule I can find that talks about changing a definitive score. The only argument I could see to invoke the reasons given in 9.7.4 is "due to an arbitration decision", but then it goes on to say that changes are defined as a modification to the score sheet after both parties have signed off on the score sheet. 

 

Shooter A could say, "I don't care if the time looks ridiculous, we all agreed that the score was correct and it has been accepted". 9.7.4 doesn't leave room for a re-shoot, and I agree, the timer wasn't defective, it was the RO that was defective (held the timer poorly, didn't keep up with the shooter, didn't apply thought to the recorded time, and or "PCC"). Perhaps a combination of 11.7.1 (arbitration by a 3rd party) and 9.7.4 (arbitration being allowed to address a definitive score), and 9.10.2 (arbitration committee decides time is unrealistic = reshoot). So the process should potentially be:

1. Shooter B requests arbitration to review Shooter A's time under 9.7.4 and 11.7.1, pays his $100

2. Arbitration committee reviews the time, decides it is unrealistic under 9.10.2 and issues a reshoot

 

If this is the process, if Shooter B doesn't request arbitration and pay $100, then the ridiculous score stands?

 

I don't see grounds in the rule book for a MD to come by, review the definitive time and say, "Yeah go reshoot that, the time looks ridiculous to me" (which is what took place).

the RM may not have a rule to quote when talking to competitor A after having competitor B ask him about it, but he sure can bring the situation to his attention and ask him to reshoot. As above if the shooter says no I don't think the time is wrong then you get into possible arb situation, but unless I believe that shooters incorrect time is going to make me loose the championship or I think they are being a total d^$@ about it, I'm probably not going to risk Arb money

[Smithcity]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

the RM may not have a rule to quote when talking to competitor A after having competitor B ask him about it, but he sure can bring the situation to his attention and ask him to reshoot. As above if the shooter says no I don't think the time is wrong then you get into possible arb situation, but unless I believe that shooters incorrect time is going to make me loose the championship or I think they are being a total d^$@ about it, I'm probably not going to risk Arb money

In this case, the closest anyone would have come to him was 60%, thats enough to take a match win from someone. Sounds like there isnt grounds for a reshoot unless it is voluntary and the range master agrees to it, or arbitration. All along i thought the only reshoot that was left up to the shooter was in the case of ro interference.

[Poppa Bear]

This would be relevant to the discussion I believe:  

 

2.3.3.3 A competitor who refuses to reshoot a course of fire, under this or any other section, when so ordered by a Range Official, will receive a zero score for that stage, irrespective of any previous attempt. 

 

[Smithcity]

3 minutes ago, Poppa Bear said:

This would be relevant to the discussion I believe:  

 

2.3.3.3 A competitor who refuses to reshoot a course of fire, under this or any other section, when so ordered by a Range Official, will receive a zero score for that stage, irrespective of any previous attempt. 

 

Well, never thought of 2.3.3.3 in an unlimited context. There must be a limit to it. If a range official doesnt like a competitors hair and tells them to reshoot, and the competitor refuses, the competitor receives a zero score? Tell me it isnt so.

[Poppa Bear]

The reshoot would need to be justified.  There are options in terms of arbitration etc. that would also come into play.  To me the big issue would be if there was a true justification like the time being not realistic then the shooter would have a choice of either no score for the stage or reshoot for a valid score with a valid time.

[Smithcity]

56 minutes ago, Poppa Bear said:

The reshoot would need to be justified.  There are options in terms of arbitration etc. that would also come into play.  To me the big issue would be if there was a true justification like the time being not realistic then the shooter would have a choice of either no score for the stage or reshoot for a valid score with a valid time.

So what is the rule to justify the reshoot and what would the procedure be. 

[rowdyb]

2 hours ago, Smithcity said:

So what is the rule to justify the reshoot and what would the procedure be. 

no rule, just a reasonable and prudent person. thankfully we don't have to have a rule book that covers every single "what it" scenario anyone can think up!

 

what if i told you i was at a level 3 recently and a score was changed after a shooter shot, with no re shoot? a competitor saw a score for a stage that was 2 somethign seconds in what wsa  normally a 20 second stage. RM, RO and competitor talk and realize the decimal point was moved. to me what is amazing is everyone went through the whole freaking process and accepted 2.34 score when it should have been a 23.40. no reshoot happened.

[Smithcity]

5 hours ago, rowdyb said:

no rule, just a reasonable and prudent person. thankfully we don't have to have a rule book that covers every single "what it" scenario anyone can think up!

 

what if i told you i was at a level 3 recently and a score was changed after a shooter shot, with no re shoot? a competitor saw a score for a stage that was 2 somethign seconds in what wsa  normally a 20 second stage. RM, RO and competitor talk and realize the decimal point was moved. to me what is amazing is everyone went through the whole freaking process and accepted 2.34 score when it should have been a 23.40. no reshoot happened.

Yes, in that scenario the shooter agreed, everyone was reasonable. What if the shooter is not reasonable, im trying to understand the proper procedure and accompanying rules for that case.

[rowdyb]

i don't know the rules for that, and I'm not an RO. But I did witness it in person and saw a score changed without the person shooting. So it can happen.

[pjb45]

I believe Dave Sevigny at the HDC had this happen. He was and still is a class act. He volunteered to do a reshoot. 

 

At at a match in Abq I took off at the beep and the RO never caught up. He was and is my friend for some sixty years. It was a no brainer-we just did a reshoot. 

 

Good sportsman’s conduct does not require a rule. 

[Joe4d]

On 5/23/2019 at 9:58 PM, Poppa Bear said:

This would be relevant to the discussion I believe:  

 

2.3.3.3 A competitor who refuses to reshoot a course of fire, under this or any other section, when so ordered by a Range Official, will receive a zero score for that stage, irrespective of any previous attempt. 

 

yep that, or simple unsportsmanlike conduct.. Pretty sad when folks would lie, cheat and steal for a couple spots on a results list.
I have zero tolerance for those without honor.

[gng4life]

1 hour ago, pjb45 said:

I believe Dave Sevigny at the HDC had this happen. He was and still is a class act. He volunteered to do a reshoot. 

 

At at a match in Abq I took off at the beep and the RO never caught up. He was and is my friend for some sixty years. It was a no brainer-we just did a reshoot. 

 

Good sportsman’s conduct does not require a rule. 

++++++++++1!