Scoop draw for competitive shooting

[Nevadazielmeister]

13 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Need a video? This isn't about the draw per se but you me doing them in the manner I describe. Or trying to.

 

 

 

Out of all of these, this is the only legal draw start position. To boot, a .95 draw is VERY good, up there with the best, especially considering the holster he is using. 

 

4 hours ago, levellinebrad said:

I like the scoop draw. I was slow on this one but I have been doing it so long that it just feels natural 

 

Per the USPSA rules and comparing your hands/arms in your video to Appendix E3, that draw could be deemed illegal. Hands and arms naturally at sides is clearly shown and with your hands hovering over your handgun with your arm bent forward could be construed a violation of rule 8.2.2.

 

13 hours ago, JoeSoop said:

Video would be nice. I think I have the basics, but trying to compare what I am practicing with someone who has mastered it. Here is a decent one...just not consistent yet: 

 

 

Like the video above yours, your hand is also not naturally by your side. Some RO's (this one in particular) would find issue with it being that way. I would suggest getting into a routine in which you are not likely to be in violation and suddenly have to change. I would further recommend that you very carefully review Rowdy's thoughts on the subject of drawing since he clearly (really clearly) understands a very fast and very safe draw. 

 

Good luck sir!!

[Rich406]

1 hour ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Out of all of these, this is the only legal draw start position. To boot, a .95 draw is VERY good, up there with the best, especially considering the holster he is using. 

 

 

Per the USPSA rules and comparing your hands/arms in your video to Appendix E3, that draw could be deemed illegal. Hands and arms naturally at sides is clearly shown and with your hands hovering over your handgun with your arm bent forward could be construed a violation of rule 8.2.2.

 

 

Like the video above yours, your hand is also not naturally by your side. Some RO's (this one in particular) would find issue with it being that way. I would suggest getting into a routine in which you are not likely to be in violation and suddenly have to change. I would further recommend that you very carefully review Rowdy's thoughts on the subject of drawing since he clearly (really clearly) understands a very fast and very safe draw. 

 

Good luck sir!!

 

 

The inconsistency with how arms naturally at sides is enforced is probably why the start positions at last years nationals were mostly wrists below belt. Wrist below belt should be a lot easier to enforce consistently.

 

[MJinPA]

 
 
The inconsistency with how arms naturally at sides is enforced is probably why the start positions at last years nationals were mostly wrists below belt. Wrist below belt should be a lot easier to enforce consistently.
 

Yup. The new 18 series classifiers now say wrists below belt.


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[Nevadazielmeister]

For easy reference, here is the page from the 2019 rules of Appendix E3 showing clearly what hands naturally at sides means. There is no mention of wrist height that I could find in the rules. 

Hands Arms naturally at sides.pdf

[DKorn]

15 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

For easy reference, here is the page from the 2019 rules of Appendix E3 showing clearly what hands naturally at sides means. There is no mention of wrist height that I could find in the rules. 

Hands Arms naturally at sides.pdf 404.92 kB · 4 downloads

 

Wrist height has nothing to do with hands relaxed at sides... but keep in mind that appendix E3 is only relevant when the start position is “hands relaxed at sides”. A lot of stage designers don’t like the issues that have happened with “hands relaxed at sides” in the past, so some people are specifying “wrists below belt” in the WSB. 

[MJinPA]

For easy reference, here is the page from the 2019 rules of Appendix E3 showing clearly what hands naturally at sides means. There is no mention of wrist height that I could find in the rules. 
Hands Arms naturally at sides.pdf

I’m familiar with the rules. To see “wrists below belt” you’ll need to reference stage descriptions. Many stage descriptions around here (PA) will say “wrists below belt” instead of asking competitors to stand like the guy in E3. “Naturally” is not easily enforced. What is natural to one person may not be to another because of various physical considerations. I’d like to see the rule book change to account for this but for now I write “wrists below belt” in my stage descriptions.

For classifiers that say “naturally at sides”, as an RO I make sure they aren’t pushing the boundary but also understand that not everyone stands “naturally” like Mr. E3.


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[Sarge]

Wrists below belt is being pushed by DNROI these days exactly because hands relaxed is so hard to standardize. That's great ,but why not take it out of the rule book?

[elguapo]

2 hours ago, DKorn said:

As long as you don’t get on the trigger until the gun is absolutely in a safe direction, I can’t see how it could result in a DQ. Get on it too much earlier, on the other hand, and you definitely could send yourself home early. 

 

Remember, if someone cooks one off early into the dirt below a target, under USPSA rules that is not an AD, it’s a miss, assuming they don’t make it up. If the round hits within 10 feet of the shooter and the target is further away, then it’s an AD and a DQ. 

 

That's exactly the thing.  You're betting on a mixture of good timing and good luck to not go have lunch at DQ, or worse.

 

I shoot DA/SA handguns only and I used to be one of those who would prep the trigger on the extension.  Until one day in practice I got on it too hard and too soon and sent one out before reaching full extension.  I saw it go into the berm, low; but it cured me of trying to shave .05 seconds off the draw that way.

[MJinPA]

Wrists below belt is being pushed by DNROI these days exactly because hands relaxed is so hard to standardize. That's great ,but why not take it out of the rule book?

I’d love to know too. Maybe it’s because some old-school or ROs would no longer be able to make the call on whether or not someone was “relaxed” enough. When I first started USPSA I had ROs repeat the word “relaxed” because I had some tension in my hands.


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[DKorn]

Just now, elguapo said:

 

That's exactly the thing.  You're betting on a mixture of good timing and good luck to not go have lunch at DQ, or worse.

 

I shoot DA/SA handguns only and I used to be one of those who would prep the trigger on the extension.  Until one day in practice I got on it too hard and too soon and sent one out before reaching full extension.  I saw it go into the berm, low; but it cured me of trying to shave .05 seconds off the draw that way.

 

I think it depends on exactly what you practice and when you train to get on the trigger. 

 

If your finger doesn’t even go on the trigger until you’re pointed downrange and have both hands on the gun, you’re not at much risk of having the gun go off so early that it’s unsafe. I think in general it’s not worth it to prep the trigger too early, but on really close targets, or in training to see how early you could get the shot off, it might make sense. 

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, MJinPA said:

I’d love to know too. Maybe it’s because some old-school or ROs would no longer be able to make the call on whether or not someone was “relaxed” enough. When I first started USPSA I had ROs repeat the word “relaxed” because I had some tension in my hands.


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The women shooters for whatever reason are the absolute worst when it comes to hands relaxed at sides. They literally have no idea what it means and are allowed to get away with it by virtually everybody.

[elguapo]

3 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

I think it depends on exactly what you practice and when you train to get on the trigger. 

 

If your finger doesn’t even go on the trigger until you’re pointed downrange and have both hands on the gun, you’re not at much risk of having the gun go off so early that it’s unsafe. I think in general it’s not worth it to prep the trigger too early, but on really close targets, or in training to see how early you could get the shot off, it might make sense. 

 

The biggest risk comes when your draw to an index, aka the pistol take the shortest route from holster to target in front of your face (which is what I do).  If you do the press-out draw, much less risk.

[Supermoto]

18 hours ago, JoeSoop said:

I have a decent (standard) draw in USPSA in which I push my hand down and index my thump under the beaver tail before drawing the gun. I have been watching guys beat me off the line at tournaments utilizing a scoop draw and I want  to learn. I have searched and cannot find any good training videos or images on teaching the scoop draw out of a competitor OWB holster (I found the video by Robin Brown doing scoop from concealment, not what I am looking for). Anyone come across anything for this? Thanks.

 

There is a guy up in MA with a awesome scoop draw.  His name is Matt, wears a Team Bacon shirt....he can help you

[JoeSoop]

On 4/18/2019 at 7:05 PM, rowdyb said:

when you are making ready and about to the end of the process

• holster the gun and leave that hand on it.
• take your other hand and place with where you index it to on the draw. usually somewhere between the belt and bottom of your breast bone (zyphoid)
• confirm the feeling of being in these two positions while reminding yourself of positive things, controlling your breathing and remembering to grip strong
• as your support hand moves to naturally at your side or whatever the start it, take your thumb over the beaver tail, keep your gun hand reasonably close to the position it was in as you gripped the gun. your hand will almost look like you are making a child like toy gun
• slide your gun hand down the back of your holster with your middle finger dragging along its (the holster's) back side, to the start position.
• when the beep goes off reverse this process. support hand goes rapidly to its index spot to eventually meet the other hand and gun, forming the strong grip asap
• gun hand comes up, pinky and ring and middle finger curled up, finger indexes out straigh (making the gun shape) and thumb out of the way.
• as those three fingers hit the front strap of the gun, they start lifting it out of the holster.
• aaaasssss you're lifting the gun your thumb goes over the beaver tail and you confirm the grip with that hand. if you do a pause with your gun hand as it touches to get your thumb in position you are losing much of the time advantage of this draw.
• two hands meet as normal as you make a full grip, extend to fire and get the appropriate sight alignment and picture.

Thank you. This is helpful. The point about keeping the thumb out of the way and until you have scooped up with the fingers is the key. The thumb kept wanting to creep under the beaver tail as I was scooping which is throwing me off. Now I will practice and practice and see if I can consistently get the grip I get with my standard draw. 

[obsessiveshooter]

I started using a scoop draw about a year ago and I wish I had switched over sooner. I think it easily shaved .2 seconds off my draw. I also canted my pistol forward, and moved it further forward on my belt to optimize the draw. It does make a surrender draw a different animal though.
I think the viability of a scoop draw depends on how well your gun fits you and or how much time you are willing to put into it. Me, I dont practice much, but my magwell is modified into a shelf that forces my hand into the exact same position every time, so I'm not concerned about getting a bad grip. This made the switch pretty painless.

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[Jamese35]

28 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I started using a scoop draw about a year ago and I wish I had switched over sooner. I think it easily shaved .2 seconds off my draw. I also canted my pistol forward, and moved it further forward on my belt to optimize the draw. It does make a surrender draw a different animal though.
I think the viability of a scoop draw depends on how well your gun fits you and or how much time you are willing to put into it. Me, I dont practice much, but my magwell is modified into a shelf that forces my hand into the exact same position every time, so I'm not concerned about getting a bad grip. This made the switch pretty painless.

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Interesting, can we get pictures of you holster, and what are your draw times?

[obsessiveshooter]

Interesting, can we get pictures of you holster, and what are your draw times?

This wasn't a flat footed draw to a target in front of my face, but you can see the draw, and holster placement. It's just easy, there is not much extra movement on my strong hand, from hands relaxed at sides to where my two hands meet in front of me. My hand moves from the relaxed spot and the pistol is picked up along the way.
I don't react to the beep super fast, so getting an A hit at 10 yards was hard to do any faster for me than 1.1 secs. Now I think I can do it pretty reliably around .9. A younger quicker better looking guy could do it way faster than me.

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[Matt1]

Scoop draws are dumb


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[mach1soldier]

One of the best scoop draws I have seen on a routine basis is manny Bragg. He consistently hits .55-.60 within ten yards.

 

 I would look at some of his videos

 

[Prov1x]

8 hours ago, Matt1 said:

Scoop draws are dumb


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^ This

[MJinPA]

^ This

Only if you shoot idpa or 3-gun. For uspsa, the scoop is where it’s at!


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[Matt1]

Only if you shoot idpa or 3-gun. For uspsa, the scoop is where it’s at!


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Send a question into PSAD asking what they think about scoop draws


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[MJinPA]

Send a question into PSAD asking what they think about scoop draws


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Google has failed me. Who the heck is PSAD? All I can find is Pennsylvania society for advancement of the deaf. I think a scoop would work well for them too in USPSA.


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[Nevadazielmeister]

3 minutes ago, MJinPA said:

Google has failed me. Who the heck is PSAD? All I can find is Pennsylvania society for advancement of the deaf. I think a scoop would work well for them too in USPSA.


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Yes, your Google fu is totally worthless. Everyone knows that PSAD refers to the "PSA Density" which means "The relationship of the prostate specific antigen level to the size and weight (volume) of the prostate." 

 

Somehow I think that Matt1 might be asking someone to pull something out of their rectal database, but not sure. Great information there. Anything is possible. 

[MJinPA]

 
Yes, your Google fu is totally worthless. Everyone knows that PSAD refers to the "PSA Density" which means "The relationship of the prostate specific antigen level to the size and weight (volume) of the prostate." 
 
Somehow I think that Matt1 might be asking someone to pull something out of their rectal database, but not sure. Great information there. Anything is possible. 

Haha! Well now I know.


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