Trans

[konkapot]

itioning to Open possibly. Long time iron sights guy. 

 

1. I understand a properly designed/loaded Open gun will shoot flat. What will the recoil impact be on my elbows? Not talking about muzzle flip... concerned about.transference of Energy/Joules/Newtons of misery to my elbows...…….

 

2. It sounds like 40 Open is seditious and un-American; basically the belief is that 40 doesn't generate enough gas to make to comp work effectively...which means that dot is now moving. Is this correct?

 

 

3. The STI DVC 9x19 gun....if I got the chamber lengthened to accept 9 Major, what would happen shooting 9 Major in this gun? Sudden catastrophic horrible-ness or just a general destruction of the gun?

 

4. Will an STI Aluminum grip crack if used for a Open gun? They cracked repeatedly on my Limited Major guns, but.....?

 

Thanks in advance for answers

[Supermoto]

The recoil has to go somewhere, so if its not up, its back into your hands, wrists and elbows, depending on how you control recoil.

 

My personal belief is that I don't want a super flat shooting up gun.  I want a nice controllable, easy to track dot.  make it easier to call shots.  Plus the dot is back to POA before I can break the next shot.

 

I probably wouldn't build a 40 open gun, but it that all I had, I think mag capacity would be more of a detriment than how well it works the comp.

 

STI DVC open gun will be fine for major.  I wouldn't use the shorty steel gun for major

[zzt]

First, I shoot 40 Open and now 9mm Open.  40 Open has some advantages.  First, it is a straight walled case.  You can use the Lee FCD to remove Glock bulges, so you don't have to push through size.  You have no mag feeding issues.  It is easy to get it to eject, even under a frame mount with a Slideride on it.  You can go waaaay over major PF and still be within safe, published SAAMI pressure limits.  Disadvantages are the bullets cost 1 cent more than 9mm, and you fit three fewer in the mag.

 

40 major not making enough gas is horse crap.  It makes as much as 9mm, but at lower pressure.  A friend thought he might like to switch from his Czechmate Open gun, so he fired six 2011 Open gun in a weekend of testing.  He told me my 40 Open shot flatter than any of the others he tried.  It is also quite soft.

 

Open guns generally shoot softer than a Limited gun.  The gas striking the baffles in the comp pull the barrel/gun forward, drastically lessening the recoil backwards.  Your elbows will thank you.  To give you an idea of how much energy is redirected, I use an 8 lb recoil spring in my 40 Open guns and a 7 lb in the 9mm Open.  You have to use a 14 or 16 for Limited.

 

I would not use an STI Aluminum grip for anything.  In fact, I wouldn't use STI anything, except their new Gen 2 mags.

 

I just finished building my 9mm Open gun.  I love it.  It came out exactly how I wanted.  I'm not sure yet whether I like 9mm major or 40 major better.  Time will tell.

 

What I am sure of is I'm going to sell my 40 Open backup gun.  If you are interested, shoot me an email at zzt@earthlink.net and we can talk some more.  When I decide which way I'm going to go, I'll sell the one I don't want and build an exact duplicate of the one I'm keeping as a backup.

Edited April 3, 2019 by zzt

[Hi-Power Jack]

33 minutes ago, konkapot said:

itioning to Open possibly. Long time iron sights guy. 

 

What have you been shooting ?

 

How is that on your elbows ?

 

My TruBor 9mm Major seems easy on my elbows  

[MemphisMechanic]

No one wants a 40S&W Open gun because they don’t want to have to do two reloads in quite a few of the field courses.

 

Mag capacity is the reason everyone loads the skinny calibers - 9mm and 38somethingorother.

 

If 9Major were legal in Limited, you’d see guys switching overnight for the extra 2 or 3 rounds there, too.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[zzt]

I mentioned mag capacity as a disadvantage, but it is not a big one.  Most of the shoots around here are five or six stage courses, so they keep them long to keep the round count up.  In three years of shooting USPSA Open, I have never encountered a stage where I could not change a mag on the run without costing time.  25 shots is a short course around here, so 26+1 and 29+1 both make that.  Most are 28 to 32, so I'd reload whether I was shooting 9mm or 40 Open.

 

BTW, I got into 40 Open because I bought an upper for my Limited gun to see if I liked it.  The guy I bought my first 2011 40 Open gun did exactly the same thing.  He stated with an old STI Edge he shot for Limited.  He sent the frame and slide to Gans Custom along with all SVI parts.  Gans turned it into a full custom gun.  My used backup gun stated the same way.  He had a builder make an entire new top end for his Limited gun.

Edited April 3, 2019 by zzt

[Supermoto]

11 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

No one wants a 40S&W Open gun because they don’t want to have to do two reloads in a lot of the field courses.

 

Mag capacity is the reason everyone loads the skinny calibers - 9mm and 38somethingorother.

 

why would you have to do 2 reloads?

[MemphisMechanic]

13 minutes ago, Supermoto said:

why would you have to do 2 reloads?

 

Go shoot Open for a few matches with 24-25 rounds in your mags where they like tight partials, fast swingers, and distant steel plates. Then get back to me.

 

You don’t always get to shoot 2 clusters of 4 targets, reload, and shoot 16 more shots. Some places have stages that actually push your capacity.

 

If you want to win, you’re shooting on the move between arrays without pause til somewhere 24-28 rounds into the stage. Or loading early in the stage and doing so afterward.

 

None of the guys going to Nats shoot a .40 Open gun. That ought to tell you something.

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Supermoto]

So I'm going to need 50-75 rounds to get through the 32 round stage?

 

I rather just call my shots, get my hits and move on

[zzt]

I already do.  And on such a course I'd plan a reload when I was shooting with my 40 or my 9.  If you cannot handle that with two big sticks with rounds left over, something is wrong.  As I said, I shoot both.  There is only a three round mag deficit.  It's not the big deal everyone thinks it is.

 

Another thing I'd suggest to the OP is not to buy a new Open gun for your first gun.  Look around.  Ask if you can try other shooters guns.  Try to get a general impression of what you might like, then go find one like that used.  Chances are you won't think it perfect after 6 months.  I shot one new and two used Open guns, plus tried a bunch of my friends guns.  After two full seasons I had a pretty good idea of what my ideal gun would be.  So I started ordering parts, built it and started removing metal to get the balance I wanted.  I could never have done that if I hadn't shot so many Open guns for two years.

[MemphisMechanic]

7 minutes ago, Supermoto said:

So I'm going to need 50-75 rounds to get through the 32 round stage?

 

I rather just call my shots, get my hits and move on

 

You’re the same type of guy who keeps telling me I should *never* need to shoot my Production gun to 11.

 

Yet I’ve won stages once or twice doing exactly that, when no one else considered doing it.

 

I hold 23+1 in Carry Optics. Twice recently, I’ve shot the gun til the mag was empty, or down to 1 round, in order to reload in a more advantageous spot... while the guys with 20-22 in their mags were doing two reloads.

 

Capacity matters. It’s sometimes a factor and advantage in being more agressive or creative in your stage planning.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Supermoto]

There is a big difference between running your gun dry and being down a couple rounds

 

Do you even shoot open?

[zzt]

Capacity matters in SS, SS minor and production.  It matters less in CO and Limited, and even less in Open.  You make your stage plan and shoot it.  If it calls for 11 in Production, go for it.  The only thing you want to avoid is a standing reload.  BTW, hats off to the Production and SS shooters.  You REALLY have to plan your stage.  It's much easier in Open.  I'll shoot these, then these and these and those.  I'll do a reload there and shoot the rest.

Edited April 3, 2019 by zzt

[Travtastik]

There are several episodes of Power Factor Show on YouTube on 40 open. May be worth a look for you.

[MemphisMechanic]

@zzt @Supermoto 24 rounds before the optimal reload point, plus the desire to rip 2 to 3 makeup shots off if needed so you can really push speed?

 

I don’t understand why you guys are talking like this kind of thing isn’t common.

 

No I don’t shoot Open. But I try to design a lot of interesting stages, and watch how the hicap vs lowcap guys attack them...

 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Supermoto]

You would still have extra rounds in a 40 mag before the reload.  Shoot as fast as you can call your shot.  Extra rounds don't make you faster nor do you need to rely on them to shoot aggressively.   

[EEH]

First shooting 40 you need 165, or 155 gr bullets to get powder to make lots of gas,Only problem is mag capacity 24 versus 30 makes a difference.

recoil still felt but not as bad.

sti dvc mine shoots long ammo fine, have been told by shooters that had tnem that they will crack.

recoil not as bad as 40 to me.

next match you can try mine.

[EEH]

Carry optics’s may be a choice !

[Unregistered]

Reloads cost time, no matter where or when you do it. If you're running while you're reloading, you're not running as fast as you can be.

[Blammo]

All things being equal more mag capacity will always be an advantage. In open why do you want to handicap yourself in any way with equipment. The higher the hit factor the more it matters that you save time in every aspect. Open has the highest hit factors and 40 doesn’t bring any advantage in itself...just sayin. 

[jpl]

 

7 hours ago, konkapot said:

 

 

7 hours ago, konkapot said:

 

2. It sounds like 40 Open is seditious and un-American; basically the belief is that 40 doesn't generate enough gas to make to comp work effectively...which means that dot is now moving. Is this correct?

 

 

3. The STI DVC 9x19 gun....if I got the chamber lengthened to accept 9 Major, what would happen shooting 9 Major in this gun? Sudden catastrophic horrible-ness or just a general destruction of the gun?

 

4. Will an STI Aluminum grip crack if used for a Open gun? They cracked repeatedly on my Limited Major guns, but.....?

 

Thanks in advance for answers

 

Hi John!

 

 Go with 9 Major in a 5" gun.  They are the softest shooting competitive guns.

 

You shouldn't need to have the chamber lengthened in a DVC but STI's have had issues the last couple of years that you may not want to experience.

 

If you want a metal grip, look really hard at Cheely's E2 grip.  They are really nice and feel good.  Shaped like a CZ/PT Evo and come with all of the grip parts. (Magwell, mainspring housing, grip safety and mag release.)  And not too hard to fit if you pay attention to what you're doing.

 

If you want to chat Open give me a call or e-mail me.  "I'm your huckleberry"!

[IHMSA15151]

15 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

No one wants a 40S&W Open gun because they don’t want to have to do two reloads in quite a few of the field courses.

 

Mag capacity is the reason everyone loads the skinny calibers - 9mm and 38somethingorother.

 

If 9Major were legal in Limited, you’d see guys switching overnight for the extra 2 or 3 rounds there, too.

 

 

This is true. Also, I don't find much recoil difference from my major loads and minor Steel loads. They certainly feel different, but not to the point of being painful.  

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Try to find a STI TruBor in 9mm. It will take you as far as you want to go. As for recoil I am sensitive to it in my elbow. I have had tennis and golf elbow in the past shooting limited 40 major pistols. I switched to open and the problem went away. I use 115 grain bullets and that helps also. I am shooting carry optics right now and really enjoy it. 24 rounds to start and one reload just like I would do on an open pistol. I would see if you try someones open pistol and see if it is for you. Some pistols do shoot softer than others and it has to do with comp design, barrel length, barrel holes and bullet weight used. As for the aluminum STI grip. If they are fitted correctly they will last. I have one of the original aluminum small grips that has over 10,000 rounds and is still going strong. I know of a couple of others that have well over 30,000 and still are good. Personally I like the plastic grip more. A little softer on the hand since it acts like a buffer between the frame and grip. Once you try shooting open you will like it alot. Thanks, Eric

[zzt]

In no particular order.  There is no overriding advantage to 40 Open.  There are some, as I mentioned above.  However, if you know how to set a gun up for 9mm major, they disappear.  When I told a good M Open I sometimes shoot with that I was building a 9mm Open gun, he said good luck.  You'll spend the first six  months getting the mags to feed, proper ejection, and I couple other things I don't remember now.  None of that happened.  The gun functioned perfectly from the very first round.

 

The notion that 40 Open shoots harder or softer than 9mm major is incorrect.  Ac6r said above, it depends on a lot of things.  Both my main 40 gun and the 9mm gun shoot soft.

 

165gr bullets do not work in 40.  You don't use enough powder to work the comp, especially if you have poppels.  135s work fine, but are hard to get in quantity at a good price.  Also, you use a lot of powder so they are loud and violent, much more so the 9mm 115 major.  155s are, IMO, the weight of choice for 40 Open.  Just buy a case (3000) of Montana Gold 155 JHP and load to 1.180".

 

There seems to be some confusion over 40 Open mag capacity.  My MBX 140s hold 20 reloadable.  My MBX 170 hold 26 reloadable, but not as easily as the 140s.  If I'm going t reload to the 170, it only put 25 in to make it easier. 

 

In MM's video above, I fail to see how a 26+1 start doesn't get you though the same stage plan, even if you took makeups.

 

The notion that changing mags on the run costs you time is hogwash.

 

I started with 40 Open because I converted a Limited gun.  I wanted to see if I liked it before I committed big bucks.  Having shot both, I still say it is an effective way to go if the OP want to convert his Limited gun.  That being said, if I were starting from scratch WITH the knowledge I have now, it would be 9mm major.  All the scare stories are bunk if you know what you are doing.  Plus, you have a much wider range of suitable projectiles.

 

If you are already shooting Limited, the cheapest way to try Open is to rebarrel your existing gun and add a dot.  Next cheapest is to have a whole new top end made for it.  If you do that, go 9mm.

 

 

[theWacoKid]

19 hours ago, konkapot said:

itioning to Open possibly. Long time iron sights guy. 

 

1. I understand a properly designed/loaded Open gun will shoot flat. What will the recoil impact be on my elbows? Not talking about muzzle flip... concerned about.transference of Energy/Joules/Newtons of misery to my elbows...…….

 

2. It sounds like 40 Open is seditious and un-American; basically the belief is that 40 doesn't generate enough gas to make to comp work effectively...which means that dot is now moving. Is this correct?

 

 

3. The STI DVC 9x19 gun....if I got the chamber lengthened to accept 9 Major, what would happen shooting 9 Major in this gun? Sudden catastrophic horrible-ness or just a general destruction of the gun?

 

4. Will an STI Aluminum grip crack if used for a Open gun? They cracked repeatedly on my Limited Major guns, but.....?

 

Thanks in advance for answers

 

1. Generally it's like any major load.  Most compensation helps offset some flip that occurs from rearward recoil, but reward recoil is still there and seems exaggerated due to all the burning powder and crazy blast.  It's a haptic thing that makes it feel so different.

 

2.  40 open sucks not because of gas or any of that nonsense, it's because it's not maximizing mag capacity.

 

3. That's a gun structurally build like any other STI 2011 so there's nothing here to discuss.  9 major doesn't require any chamber adjustments, just possibly throat lengthening to load extra long.

 

4.  Maybe, maybe not.  Aluminum grips have a history of cracking but so does everything on an open gun.  Seems some aluminum grips have gotten better, but I don't think it's an ideal choice.